Discussion»Statements»Rosie's Corner» "This is how men talk. What Hillary has done is worse". As just heard on TV per a Trumper. THIS IS HOW MEN TALK? ALL MEN OR JUST ThE JERKS?
In such demeaning and insulting terms as Trump used excon? Sorry but it's just very hard for me to believe. My best friends have ALWAYS BEEN MEN with very few exceptions and without exception they never once made me feel uncomfortable or second-class or "less-than". My experiences with men/males/boys/guys in my real life has been a pleasure. I don't count some of the rude insulting male specimens one might encounter on internet social sites. They don't count. I know guys talk differently when there are no females present but I thought it was just that they swore a lot more. I had no idea they referred to women as robotic sex objects without feelings or emotions. That IS a shock. Thank you for your reply and Happy Saturday. I wonder if guys who have sisters are more courteous and respectful than those who don't? Sigh. :(
Couple things.. When I spoke of it, I only talked about schtuping in the ABSTRACT.. It was NEVER directed at, or about a real girl. It NEVER was about stuff I DID or WOULD do.
Secondly, Trump didn't simply talk about sex in the abstract. He spoke of things he DID, and things he ADVOCATES doing. And, what he DID, and says is OK to do, is the criminal act of sexual assault.
Thanks for your additional reply excon. I have to admit I feel hurt. Silly I know but to find out that ev en the GOOD guys think in those terms about women AT ANY AGE hurts me. My dad made me feel as if I could do anything I wanted to do and be anything I wanted to be as long as I was willing to work hard for it. No exception. I never felt like "less than". I cannot imagine my dad or my son or you for that matter talking about women in any context in a disparaging way...abstract/concrete/whatever....at any age. I'm very surprised that I have been affected this way. But you and MrWitch and Glis all verify that at some point in their lives that's just how guys talk. Adolescence breeds it. But to think that at any time for any reason that would be true is very hurtful to me. I think retroactively through all the years of my existence and interaction with males I never once could conceive of that being true. I know there are jerks and misogynists and jacka**es among the male species but to me they were always the rare exception and I never knew any of thenm personally. I'm trying to figure out why I feel so hurt by this revelation. If I do figure it out I will let you know. I do appreciate your hanging in and clarifying things. Maybe it will help. I just feel sad. Well we have Debate #2 to look forward to and hopefully the implosion/explosion/disintegration of the abomination known as Donald Trump. That cheers me up. A bloodbath is what I hope to see! They will have to scrape him up and shovel him out after it's over. Unless he stomps himself to oblivion a la Rumpelstiltskin and disappears! One can only hope.
Growing up as an American male, I bet I said things approximately as offensive as the would-be Groper-in-Chief has said. However, anyone older than the age of 25 (OK, ***maybe*** 30) who says those things, and especially on public record, has either a real problem with arrogance/entitlement or a profound disrespect for women, or both.
Excon is right Rosie. I would alter the supporters statement somewhat. For accuracy he should have said, 'This is how males talk.' and he would have been correct. If he had wanted to provide more information he could have added, 'Until they grow up.' and that would also have been correct.
If you're 14 and saying this, you're not a jerk, just 14 and with a lot to learn. If you're much older than early 20s and still saying this kind of thing you've probably been kept in a bubble of some kind. This applies perfectly to Trump, who has lived in his own little bubble for decades. He seems to like it there, but I think almost everyone else doesn't like the wallpaper.
Shocking MrWitch. I'm not kidding. That shocks the he** outta me. I know lockerroom talk among guys only is different than when moms and girlfriends and wives and sisters and female friends are present. But I thought it was limited to just swearing a lot more. I had no idea that Trump's attitude/word usage was reflective of the standard male attitude AT ANY AGE. I didn't. It's stunning to find this out at my age. 78 years old and I'm flummoxed by this news. So how do you develop respect for women when you become mature? Is the demeaning way young guys refers to gals when talking to other guys a right of passage? This is an example of where ignorance was bliss. My best friend all through high school was a guy named Jerry. My best friends at work were the guys. My dad was my first male best friend. If you've noticed my best friends on internet social sites are the guys although there are some gals of whom I am very very fond as well . I'm not a girly girl. I'm not over the moon about shoes or clothes or hairstyles or makeup or any of the girly things. Not to criticize girly girls. I think they're swell. We are just not that good a fit since our interests are so different. So that's why I'm sincerely shocked at this info. Thank you for your thoughtful answer and Happy Saturday my friend! :)
The irony here is that this language has nothing to do with respect for anyone - including the self. It's the sort of thing adolescents say when they're engaged in a figurative dick-measuring contest. They know little or nothing of others, and perhaps less about themselves. But they're trying to 'fit in' and find a place within a social group. It's basic group behaviour, nothing more.
I would expect anyone who is normal and over the age of about 16 to have left this behind. 'Locker room speak' as a cure-all description is nonsense, unless you severely limit either the age or emotional maturity of those present in the locker room. I recall someone saying similar things in changing rooms when I was in school. I also recall seeing the reaction from others, which was mixed. Some laughed with the speaker, some egged the speaker on with, 'Tell us more' sort of responses, some laughed at the speaker and some were disapproving, disparaging and downright mocking of the speaker.
I would suggest the type of responses vaguely mirrored emotional maturity, but would happily accept other things would affect how someone might respond to someone saying this kind of thing. Regardless, if children barely at puberty can realise this is BS, adults should have no issue with doing the same one might think.
But then you must account for the circumstances. Trump strikes me as someone who has never dealt well with challenges to his own perceived 'authority' among his peers, hangers-on and sycophants. Nobody in far too many years has responded to this kind of juvenile nonsense with, 'Shut up Donald and don't be a twat.' Insecure people often surround themselves with a servile crew and can often be thoroughly inappropriate, because they've never learned (or been dragged behind a building and physically and painfully taught) what is appropriate. I give you exhibit A.: Mr D. Trump. Still a spoiled and ignorant child after all these years.
This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at October 9, 2016 2:19 AM MDT
Thank you for your additional comments on this subject MrWitch. I will tell you what I told excon who was kind enough to try to clarify his answer. I feel very hurt and sad. I never imagined that what you and excon and Glis told me was true. That it is just some adolescent thing young males go through. I didn't know that. Why I feel so sad and hurt I can't quite figure out. As I told excon I KNOW there are jerks and jacka**es among the male species but in my experience they have been very rare..the exception..and none of them were ever in my day-to-day world. I'll get over it. I always do. At my age you would think I would be inured to such revelations but I guess part of me is still that shy little girl. I s'pose I shall never outgrow her entirely. I was less disappoited when I found out the truth about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy and I was 3! Silly me. Changing subjects. Today is Debate 2 and I'm so ready to watch the annihilation of Donald J. Trump...providing he shows up. I think Rumpelstiltskin Trump will show up and he will stomp his way to oblivion before our very eyes. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and I have never seen a better example of swine, pig, boar, hog than the Donald. Happy Sunday! :)
Don't be hurt Rosie, or sad, and be careful you don't apply this kind of thing with a broad brush. In the changing room incidents I mentioned there were teenagers who were brutally disparaging of this kind of behaviour, who mocked it mercilessly. As I mentioned, I would equate that with a rather more advanced level of emotional maturity. It's the boastful child who makes themselves look bad. I recall similar boasting from people with a different subject. Cars, fights, etc, etc. It's all just hot air and is often treated as such by peers. It's the hangers-on that are the ones to watch, because they're even more emotionally feeble than the idiot who is making a fool of himself.
You can see a similar process done by young girls too Rosie. The methods and language are different, the focus is different, but the intent is always the same - to produce rankings in a group. By the time most males are a little older than 14 they've moved on to more 'adult' ways of doing this - income, house, job title, trophy wife, etc, etc. It's all built around the idea of status within a group.
Personally I think it's a steaming pile of horse manure for anyone past late puberty. If one hasn't figured out that all the chasing, scheming, plotting, boasting and competing for 'status' is just a waste of time by the time 30 rolls round, then I think there's little hope for what I would call a normal life. But it's not my life to correct, so I usually stay quiet. :)
One of the LAST isim's that has to be wrung from society, is SEXISM. Our work is NOT yet done.. I take no solace from my formative years. But, I take no blame either.. We're ALL victims of sexism..
excon
This post was edited by excon at October 9, 2016 9:36 AM MDT
Be honest with ya'. Yeah this is how a lot of men talk over a beer session or after a game type of thing. There's different degrees and levels, but it's kinda common. It does tone down usually as we get older.
Well color me shocked Glis. I am. I didn't know that. I know lockerroom talk among guys is different than when gals are present but I thought that just meant they swore a lot more. I had no clue about the attitude or words they use about females. Can you tell me why that is? When you're younger do you think gals have no feelings or worth? That they deserve to be referred to in such disparaging terms? I'm not directing criticism at you. I'm just curious about what is behind that kind of attitude? Thank you for your reply and Happy Saturday! :)
Well if I had to explain it I guess I would say it stems from sexual fantasy, frustration, an inclination to appear alpha, humor one-up-manship, feelings of inadequacy. An expression of the primal ape in us conflicting with our higher reasoning. For the vast majority it's not taken seriously or meant seriously. Think how some people like horror and violent movies and to express horrific and violent themes as entertainment, yet have no true malice or intent within them. They would be shocked and appalled to see or of such things in real life. It's a catharsis I guess. Like anything though for some sick individuals though the expressions are very real and those people are very dangerous. Also like I said it varies in the level of vulgarity and intensity.
Thank you for trying to help me understand the mechanics of it Glis. I guess as is true of many things it's complicated. It's just in my real-life experience I've been accorded much more respect from the guys than the gals so I was thrown for a loop. I mean of course I have never b been a guy so I don't really understand the dynamics involved. I do appreciate the extra time you took for me. It helps! You're a pal! :)
You can't help but love all of this feigned indignation. You either don't know the people around you or you've been in hiding for years. Hate to say it, but we're some of the most crass, vulgar, immoral, unethical and foul mouthed people on the planet. You can single someone out for persecution, but let's not forget the glass houses we're all living in here.
Feigned? I honestly didn't know that guys were that disgusting Polk. My best friends have ALWAYS BEEN MEN. I know lockerroom talk is different among the guys when gals aren't there but I thought it was relegated to just a lot more swear words. I had no idea that males of any age (except the crappy nutjob ones like Trump) had that kind of attitude and talked that way. So do you do it because you feel women have no feelings or worth? Are we second-class citizens in your mind and don't deserve respect? Does it pump you up to put us down? I am serious. I am not feigning outrage. I AM OUTRAGED! I thought Trump was an anomaly because he is a class A nutjub. Now you and others are telling me it has been this way? Well how swell is that? That just makes me feel comfy all over. Thanks a lot for your answer. So when women say men are jerks they aren't kidding are they? :(
Good morning Rosie.. I am a bit surprised at all the answers. NO, this is NOT how a MAN acts. A MAN shows respect for all. A MAN treats women as he would like his mother to be treated. All this talk about "boys will be boys" is B.S. Boys may indeed be boys, but men are supposed to be men and that means standing up against this kind of attitude. In raising my children, we had what I called "Manhood training". Part of this was that my son must open the door for his sister, stand up for those in a weaker position and show courage, as defined by what you do when no one is looking. As a man Rosie, I offer no excuse for this behavior. and as always, have a great day...
((hugs)) Thank des. I needed that. I feel hurt and disappointed. I KNOW there are some jerks and jacka**es among the male gender but except on internet social sites where they seem to congregate I have NEVER encountered one in my real life. So to learn from some really GOOD guys that it is something young males do go through during adolescence was shocking to me. I don't know why learning that has affected me this way. I just feel terribly disappointed to know that at any age a male would think in those terms about females. I didn't know I was that vulnerable. I do appreciate your telling me that NOT ALL MALES go through that stage. When my son was 16 he went away to summer camp for a couple of weeks. It was a camp for troubled teens and one of his friends was a counselor there and invited my son to attend. Not that Rich was ever troubled. He phoned me one evening and told me that he had no idea what some of these kids experienced in their day-to-day lives and that his respect and caring for what some girls had gone through grew. Then he thanked me for providing him with a life that was free from any of those things. I think he was always respectful of women but it was that experience that really set in stone his understanding. To be thought of as "less-than" or second class or a robotic emotionless sex object by any man at any time for any reason saddens me. I don't know how long that adolescent phase lasts but some never outgrow it...witness Donald J. Trump. He pulled the scab off an ugly injury and he is covered with blood for having done it. Well today is Debate #2! I hope today is the day of his complete unraveling. We shall see. Thanks again for your reply des. I still feel hurt but I'll get over it. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss. I could have gone my whole life happily not knowing about it but I'll deal with it! Happy Sunday my friend! :)
This post was edited by RosieG at October 9, 2016 2:34 AM MDT
Sad to learn Lago. I know some jerks/jacka**es are like that. Thank goodness I have never personally encountered one in real life. Only on the internet where they seem to congregate and then they are easily ignored. Thank you for your reply and Happy Sunday! :)
excon 