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Discussion » Statements » Rosie's Corner » When "they" dismantle a nuclear reactor where do they bury the dangerous "stuff"? How deep must it be and how long does it stay "alive"?

When "they" dismantle a nuclear reactor where do they bury the dangerous "stuff"? How deep must it be and how long does it stay "alive"?

Posted - August 7, 2020

Responses


  • 6023
    There are tons of radioactive waste buried around the US.
    I think they generally use old salt mines.

    If you want a scare, do a Google search for "Hanford tunnel collapse".

      August 7, 2020 11:01 AM MDT
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  • 113301
    Isn't Hanford in California Walt? I think I"m gonna hold off on that. Thanks for the info. What is the life? A bazillion years?
      August 7, 2020 11:28 AM MDT
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  • 6023
    Nope - Hanford is in eastern Washington, on the Columbia River.

    Because of living downriver from it, and the Trojan nuclear power plant, I was interested in the topic starting in high school.

    I believe Uranium-235 is used in the rods, and it has a half life of 700 million years (give or take).

    btw - Uranium was named after the planet Uranus, which was discovered 8 years earlier.



      August 7, 2020 12:02 PM MDT
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  • 113301
    There is indeed a California Hanford Walt. In the San Joanquin Valley. But it isn't YOUR Hanford. Geez a "half life of 700 million years". Now how can anyone possibly KNOW that? Seriously? Thank you for your reply. Does that mean a full life would be 1400 million years?
      August 8, 2020 2:42 AM MDT
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  • 6023
    I believe it means that every 700 million years, half of the remaining material decays.
    So ... 1 unit after 700 million years = 1/2 unit
    After another 700 million years = 1/4 unit (1/2 of 1/2).
    After another 700 million years = 1/8 unit (1/2 of 1/4).
      August 10, 2020 8:23 AM MDT
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  • 113301
    Who would be here to TEST and VERIFY Walt? You know what Walt? I keep reading what you wrote and I'm not able to understand it. I don't know what the problem is. Well for one thing it makes no sense. You have this bunch of stuff. Say 1 million pounds. Why does only half of it decay..why not all of it? What is the difference in the stuff that dies in 700 million years and the stuff that stays alive and dies after another 700 million years and some still stays alive and dies after another 700 million years. It makes no sense at all. What determines which 1/2 dies first and which 1/4 dies next and which 1/8? Do YOU get it? It seems to me if the life of half of it is gone in 700 million years all of the life should be gone from all of it. HELP! Thank you for your brave attempt. I do not get it! :( This post was edited by RosieG at August 10, 2020 8:35 AM MDT
      August 10, 2020 8:31 AM MDT
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  • 6023

    I only "understand" it in terms of an old StarTrek story, where they stated it was "impossible" to reach Warp10.
    Why?  Because at Warp10, you would travel half the remaining distance to your destination each unit of measure - but never get there.

    EG: The first second, if your destination was 1 foot away ... you would travel 6 inches.
    The second second, you would travel 3 inches (half the remaining distance of 6 inches).
    The third second, you would travel 1.5 inches (half the remaining distance of 3 inches).
    And so on, and on, and on.

    Essentially, you would NEVER reach your destination.  Because the distance you traveled kept getting smaller and smaller.

     

    Anyway ... It's a logarithmic decrease, rather than a straight decrease.
    Here's a chart, for the half-life of Cobalt 60:

      August 10, 2020 11:45 AM MDT
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  • 113301
    Thank you for the attempted clarification and the nifty graph. It still doesn't explain WHY though does it? I get the distance thing. It is visual and is graphable. It is often shown on a straight line. There is no end to its infinite cutting in half of the distance left.. But DECAY is not distance. DECAY is a rate at which something disintegrates or deteriorates . WHY does only half of the STUFF decay each time and not all of it? Putting it in terms of food (remember I'm a foodie). Say you have one million gallons of whpping cream. It must be refrigerated to remain edible. Otherwise it spoils, right?. So why would only HALF of it spoil over 700 million years and then another half of the half left would take another 700 million years to spoil and then the half of that 1/4 spoil in anther 700 million years? Or take dry ice. It slowly disappears over time and you are left with a powdery residue of what used to weigh pounds. Maybe that is not such a good example. See why I'm stuck though? I'm not trying to be difficult. I honestly cannot get there to where you are. But thanks again for trying. SIGH. Happy Tuesday Walt! :) This post was edited by RosieG at August 11, 2020 3:22 AM MDT
      August 11, 2020 3:20 AM MDT
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  • 6023
    A food example could be cheese.
    Mold only grows on the outside of cheese, right?
    So say you have to cut off half the cheese (surface area) to get rid of the mold.
    The next time, you have to cut off half the remaining cheese (smaller surface area, now) ... which would be 1/4 of the original, or 1/2 of 1/2.
      August 11, 2020 7:18 AM MDT
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  • 113301
    OMG! You did it again! OF COURSE that I totally completely understand. I'VE DONE IT MYSELF COUNTLESS TIMES. Thank for hanging in with me and figuring out how to explain it. I sure do appreciate that a lot. Do you like cheese? We LOVE the stuff. Never had the never to try Limburger though. Have you? :)!
      August 11, 2020 8:07 AM MDT
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  • 6023
    I enjoy trying new types of cheese ... even if I find out I don't like the taste.
    But I've never tried Limburger, simply because I haven't found it when I shop and wander by the cheese area.
      August 11, 2020 8:11 AM MDT
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  • 113301
    Come to think of it I cannot recall ever seeing it anywhere. Maybe it's no longer eaten because the stink is too much to overcome? You know what? I'm gonna ask. Maybe a mugger has tried it and can report back his/her experience. We like all cheeses...some more than others and  like to try out those that are new to us too. A gastronomique adventure! What could be more fun that that? And even if you don't enjoy eating the cheese with crackers or whatever you can always melt in a pot of bean or soup or pasta and get the nutrition from it while masking the taste with sauces or whatever. Always worth a gamble because you might upon something you fall in love with! Thank you for your reply Walt. I'm going to ask about Limburger.
      August 11, 2020 8:17 AM MDT
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  • 7280
      August 20, 2020 1:32 PM MDT
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  • 7280
      August 7, 2020 12:14 PM MDT
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  • 113301
    That's an UNDERSTATEMENT tom. Far more than "worth a quick scan". So it's called Decommissioning. Very fancy dancy word. Takes money and time to make it "safe". Is the day of the nuclear power plant over? Will they all eventually be decommissioned out of existence? Thank you for the link. It's most comprehensive! This post was edited by RosieG at August 20, 2020 1:21 PM MDT
      August 8, 2020 2:48 AM MDT
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  • 7280
    Honestly, I don't know.  I suspect someone or some group has finally done some "technological forecasting" on power plants---but I would not be surprised if is not available to the public---or even admitted that it exists.

    But with increasing frequency, the safety problems that surround any massive piece of industrial equipment have prompted public questions about whether nuclear power is worth even the remote risk of a accident. Most experts agree that the American nuclear industry is in serious trouble. In the past few years, utilities have been canceling orders for reactors. This is in part because the recent growth in the demand for electricity has been less than predicted, in part because the cost of reactors has increased faster than expected (to about $1 billion each), and in part because of the growing political opposition to nuclear power.

    After previewing “The China Syndrome” in different cities, the nuclear power experts were each asked four questions and invited to make any additional comments they wished.

    The questions:

    • Is there a danger that a “meltdown” — the most serious kind of possible reactor accident — could be initiated, as the film depicts, by a minor problem in the plant?

    If impossible or highly unlikely, is there another equally simple way meltdown might be triggered?

    • Is it credible or possible, as the film has it, that a utility would manipulate information to hide the fact that a contractor falsified vital safety records?

    • Does the film make a worthwhile contribution to the present debate over nuclear energy — or will its influence be harmful?

    Most of the experts agreed that minor mishap at a nuclear power plant could trigger a serious accident, but strongly disagreed with each other on the probability of this occurring.

    Dr. Norman Rasmussen, a professor of nuclear engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who has long championed atomic energy, directed a massive study on the safety of reactors for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. The final report, issued in 1976, concluded that the possibility of the most serious kind of reactor accident occurring was as remote as a huge meteor slamming into a major city; statistically, it said, a meltdown might occur once in one million years. The N.R.C., while praising the methods of the Rasmussen study, recently concluded there was not enough information to judge the possibility of an accident in a precise way.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1979/03/18/archives/nuclear-experts-debate-the-china-syndrome-but-does-it-satisfy-the.html



      August 20, 2020 1:30 PM MDT
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  • 113301
    Typical. We end up right back where we started. WE DO NOT KNOW. Sigh. Thank you for providing that information to us tom. Much appreciated. I wonder on balance how much value there is in studies and reports and investigations and research and supposing? I know some of it is essential to our continued existence. Which some? Of course we cannot know what lies at the end of a journey unless we take it and arrive. Add to that the fact that truth is hidden results are bogus and conspiring/colluding to keep such information from we the people is always hovering above around and below. Russian Roulette? A crapshoot? A busybox to make us think we are actually doing when in fact we are just twisting knobs and dials that have no other purpose except to be twisted and pushed. I don't know whether to AARRGGHH or SIGH so I just did both. Happy Friday to thee and thine and hope all is well with you. STAY SAFE! :) This post was edited by RosieG at August 27, 2020 3:05 PM MDT
      August 21, 2020 3:11 AM MDT
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  • 6023
    Nuclear plants in America are actually obsolete technology.
    They use water for cooling.
    In Europe (or parts of it, anyway) they use a carbon-based system ... and recycle the rods and carbon material when they "refuel" the reactors.  There is also emerging technology to turn the "waste" carbon - which don't have enough radioactivity to be used in large power plants - to smaller "batteries" which can be used in things like satellites.  Or how about an electric vehicle battery that lasts for hundreds of years and will actually outlast the vehicle?  Or medical equipment (EG: pacemakers) which will never need the battery replaced?


      August 21, 2020 7:22 AM MDT
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  • 113301
    Thank you for your nifty reply Walt. Can you confirm or dispel something I heard long ago? That many years ago someone invented a tablet you could put in a car tank and it would work the same as gas. The tablets were very inexpensive. But he was bought out by gasoline manufacturers. It allegedly occurred in the late 1930's. True or faux? :)
      August 21, 2020 7:30 AM MDT
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  • 6023
    In the 1930s?
    I highly doubt it.
    The big challenge to gasoline in the 1930s were "chemurgists" spouting the benefits of corn-alcohol fuels.
    https://large.stanford.edu/courses/2015/ph240/girard2/

    Following the lift the alcohol tax in 1906, there was much promotion, both by the federal government and the national media, of ethyl alcohol fuels as a promising and cheap alternative to petroleum-based fuel (at the time ethanol from corn was quoted by the New York Times as up to 60 percent cheaper than gasoline).  According to Senator Champ Clark, who served in the early 1900's, oil producers such as Standard Oil were publicly against the "free alcohol" bill and supported retaining the alcohol tax.   Interestingly, automobile manufacturers supported ethyl alcohol as an alternative to gasoline, as most manufacturers designed their engines to run on pure alcohol fuel, in addition to gasoline and any composite blends. Ethyl alcohol was widely considered as preferable to gasoline because it was relatively clean burning and because alcohol markets would be far less volatile than those of gasoline as a result of the the renewable nature of its source.  Despite the original praise of ethyl alcohol and its promise as a gasoline alternative, it largely failed in the early 1900's. Fewer alcohol distilleries than expected were built, and as a result of low supply, prices became non-competitive. The discovery of plentiful oil reserves in Texas in the early 1900's re-established gasoline as the fuel of choice in the United States. 

    Much research was conducted in the United States and internationally on ethyl alcohol, aimed at characterizing its performance relative to gasoline.  Many of the technical benefits of alcohol resulted from it high octane rating, which prevented engine knocking (a common problem in automobile engines running on pure gasoline) and also increased the the the maximum operational engine pressure ratio, thus increasing maximum horsepower generation. Some problems that were noted were trouble starting, low volatility, and sensitivity to moisture, though these were generally considered minor drawbacks in comparison to the benefits of a higher octane rating.  Despite the significant scientific support generated, forces in favor of petroleum such as the American Petroleum Industries Committee were able to paint ethanol as an entirely inferior fuel in front of Congress on multiple occasions. The result was that the oil industry was able to block up to 40 state and federal bills supporting alcohol-gasoline tax incentives and blending programs during the 1930's.  The alcohol-blending support revived in the 1930's following the promising results of ethyl alcohol research (dubbed farm chemurgy)was stamped out not by free-market competition, or by lack of supply as in past instances, but by political and questionable business practices carried out by the industries it threatened. Besides the political lobbying against alcohol fuel incentives and blending programs, some companies, such as Ethyl Corp., went as far as denying contracts to petroleum refineries and wholesalers who produced blended varieties of gasoline. 

    So it wasn't as much the petroleum industry, as much as the lack of alcohol distillers, that "killed" the alternative fuel.

      August 21, 2020 7:52 AM MDT
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  • 113301
    Wow! So it was apocryphal? Thank you for the wealth of backstory m'dear. I wonder though if a cheap tablet dumped in a tank of water will ever be able to run a vehicle? That would be some tablet! :)
      August 21, 2020 7:56 AM MDT
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  • 6023
    There's a family locally that runs all their vehicles on bio-diesel.
    They get waste grease from a couple local restaurants, and turn it into fuel.

    I think every city should have a bio-diesel fueling station that does that.
    Take all the waste grease in the city, and use it as fuel.
      August 21, 2020 8:02 AM MDT
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  • 113301
    Restaurant grease? So you smell like fries? Thank you for your reply Walt. I dunno. Do you think that's such a good idea? :)
      August 21, 2020 11:37 AM MDT
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  • 6023
    Exactly right!
    Every time they drive, it smells like fries.
    I say they should get paid by the restaurants, for the advertising.

    LOL
      August 21, 2020 11:52 AM MDT
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