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Discussion » Questions » Religion and Spirituality » Did Pontius Pilate really condemn Christ to death by the masses at the foot of Mount Calvary in reality?

Did Pontius Pilate really condemn Christ to death by the masses at the foot of Mount Calvary in reality?

Posted - February 11

Responses


  • 9332
    Yes.
      February 11, 2018 9:07 AM MST
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  • 865
    As Governer, Pontius Pilate had the authority to sentence or release Christ, but he chose not to exercise his authority. He “washed his hands” of the case, leaving the ultimate decision to local “authorities”. 

    Thus, Pilate’s abdication of judgment removed the legal impediment to the Jewish elders’ wish to rid themselves of a rabble rouser who tossed their temple and spoke heresies. Fair to say he was at least complicit in Christ’s demise. 

    As far as reality, it’s open to discussion as to how, or if any of this occurred at all. Certainly the Romans crucified thousands of people during that era. This post was edited by Don Barzini at February 12, 2018 8:31 PM MST
      February 11, 2018 10:02 AM MST
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  • 25612
    I think after all this time, you'd have to ask someone that was there at the time.  The message that has been carried down through the ages is the figure of a person who was forced politically to just dismiss a life because it was easier to kill him even though he really did not agree with the sentence of crucifixion.  He didn't agree with taking a life or murdering someone.  What he did agree with was bowing to the will of the people.

    That's what they wanted and he sank down and gave them what they asked for.  

    He sold his soul just as sure as if he were amongst the crowd who wanted him dead.




      February 11, 2018 11:35 AM MST
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  • 16795
    not sure
      February 11, 2018 2:27 PM MST
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  • 1335
    The crucifixion was done by the Romans not the masses. although the latter were stirred up to demand it. 
      February 11, 2018 2:37 PM MST
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  • 3772
    John 19:15

    …14It was the day of Preparation for the Passover, about the sixth hour. And Pilate said to the Jews, “Here is your King!” 15At this, they shouted, “Away with Him! Away with Him! Crucify Him!” “Shall I crucify your King?” Pilate asked. “We have no king but Caesar,” replied the chief priests. 16Then Pilate handed Jesus over to be crucified, and the soldiers took Him away.…
      February 11, 2018 6:39 PM MST
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  • 4846
    Nobody knows, There is no historical evidence that a preacher name Cristos ever existed outside of the New Teatament. You are free or not believe as you will.
      February 11, 2018 6:58 PM MST
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  • 865
    His name in the local tongue of Aramaic would’ve been Yeshua; Yeshua Bin Joseph, “son of Joseph”. 
    Cristos/Christ, or more accurately, the Christ, is a title, meaning the “chosen one” or “anointed one”. Jesus/Yeshua himself is said, in Matthew 16:20, to have told his followers that NO MAN was to call him “the Christ”. Interesting? 

    I concur that no independent corroborative historical evidence for the biblical figure of Christ exists, as portrayed in NT Gospels. Zero.

    I especially enjoy the parts of the Bible where Yeshua was alone having long dialogues with God, and some anonymous person who wasn’t there writes about it. This post was edited by Don Barzini at February 12, 2018 4:33 AM MST
      February 11, 2018 7:22 PM MST
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  • 3917
    Matthew 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

    That is not what you said.

    I am told that three historians mentioned seeing Jesus. One said he had blond hair.

    EDIT: There are any number of quotes from two historians, but I am unable to find the third one. There are several pronouncements from Romans, the earliest dated 64 AD. Google finds 168,000  links on this subject. This post was edited by Jewels Vern at February 12, 2018 4:24 AM MST
      February 11, 2018 9:11 PM MST
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  • 865
    Right you are, Jewels. 
    I worded that as I did intentionally to draw out anyone who was paying attention. You were, bravo.

    I suspect the reasoning for the Apostles to be silent on the point was to save the big reveal for the Resurrection. Of course, I don’t hold that any of this is actually true. But, Ce la vie.
    Also, I intended the wording as an exercise in how easily such passages can be, and often are misconstrued to a particular purpose. I believe schisms happened this way. I also hold that it is just as likely currently accepted versions of these accounts did too. But that’s just me. 
      February 12, 2018 5:17 AM MST
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  • 2411
    Interesting, as I think that Jesus was also intentionally trying to draw out anyone that was paying attention so as to come to the conclusion themselves rather than just on the words of the apostles as Jesus was living as a man and working miracles at the time.

    Why did Jesus tell healed ones to tell no one of the miracles performed on them, and why did he tell his disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ?
    After two blind men had received sight from Jesus, he “sternly charged them, saying: ‘See that nobody gets to know it.’” (Matt. 9:30, NW) After cleansing a leper Jesus “gave him strict orders and at once sent him away, and said to him: ‘See you tell nobody a thing, but go show yourself to the priest and offer in behalf of your cleansing the things Moses directed, for the purpose of a witness to them.’” But the man spread abroad the account of the miracle “so that Jesus was no longer able to enter openly into a city” because of the throngs that hindered his movements. (Mark 1:40-45, NW) After curing a man that was deaf and afflicted with a speech impediment Jesus “charged them not to tell anyone”. (Mark 7:33-36, NW) Christ Jesus did this because he did not want to be publicly advertised in the streets and have the populace make their decision regarding him on the basis of such circulated reports. He wanted the people to see and hear for themselves and decide on the basis of their own personal experience with him.
    It was for this same reason that he charged his disciples not to advertise him as the Messiah. Instead of publicizing this in the streets and raising this issue for settlement in such public places, on the basis of the reports of the disciples, let each one investigate and make his own decision on the basis of the evidence. Hence it was that when Jesus asked his disciples who men said he was he found that some thought him Elijah, or John the Baptist, or Jeremiah, or one of the other prophets. Then he asked his disciples what they thought, and Peter expressed their belief, “You are the Christ.” “Then he sternly charged the disciples not to say to anybody that he was the Christ.” Let everyone make his own decision, just as this discussion with his disciples showed that they were doing, and coming to various conclusions. They had the Hebrew Scriptures and knew the prophecies concerning the Messiah, and they could see Jesus’ works and hear his words. Let them decide.—Matt. 16:13-20, NW.
    Thus when nettled Jews said irritably, “If you are the Christ, tell us outspokenly,” Jesus replied, “The works which I am doing in the name of my Father, these bear witness about me.” (John 10:24, 25, NW) It is true that Jesus did acknowledge to the Samaritan woman at the well that he was the Messiah, and she told the men of her city, and these Samaritan men came and heard Jesus. But note that their decision was based on what they heard Jesus say, and not on what the woman had told them: “They began to say to the woman: ‘We do not believe any longer on account of your talk; for we have heard for ourselves and we know that this man is for a certainty the savior of the world.’” (John 4:7-42, NW) Only after he was put under oath before the chief priests and Sanhedrin would he identify himself as the Messiah to them, but before he did even then he said, “That was for you to say.” It was for them to say whether he was the Messiah or not, on the basis of the evidence. The decision was for them to make, their responsibility. (Matt. 26:63, 64, NW) Similarly, when before Pilate and that official asked whether Jesus was a king, Jesus said, “It is for you to say that I am a king.” The decision was for Pilate to make.—John 18:37, NW.
    So Jesus did not want men to believe on him because others had talked them into it. He wanted them to decide for themselves whether his words and acts fulfilled the prophecies concerning the Messiah or not. He did not want any decision to be based on excited reports passed from mouth to mouth and enlarged upon, or on noisy advertising of him in the streets. He was not out for publicity of that kind, as the Pharisees were. (Matt. 6:2, 5) The Bible establishes this at Matthew 12:15-19 (NW): “He cured them all, but he strictly charged them not to make him manifest; that it might be fulfilled what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, who said: ‘Look! my servant whom I chose, my beloved, whom my soul approved! I will put my spirit upon him, and he will make clear to the nations what judgment is. He will not wrangle, nor cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the broad ways.’” (Isa. 42:2) So Jesus’ prohibition on the promiscuous advertising of his miracles and Messiahship was in fulfillment of prophecy.
      February 13, 2018 11:28 AM MST
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  • 4779
    "Antiquities of the Jews" by Flavius Josephus mentions Him. Parts of it have been heavily and clumsily edited by Christian scribes, but removing all reference to the "Galilean healer" makes an unreadable mess of his account of the fourth decade before the destruction of the Temple - a known date.
      February 11, 2018 10:04 PM MST
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  • 2876
    Wikipedia says:
    The only physical, archaeological evidence that confirms the existence of Pilate is the Latin inscription found on a limestone block relating Pilate's tribute to Tiberius, dating to 26–36 AD.
    The artifact is a fragment of the dedicatory inscriptions of a building, probably a temple, which was constructed, possibly in honour of the emperor Tiberius.
    The artifact, sometimes known as the Pilate Stone, was discovered in 1961 by an archaeological team led by Antonio Frova.[12] It was found as a reused block within a staircase located in a semicircular structure behind the stage house of the Roman theatre at Caesarea, the city that served as Rome's administrative centre in the province of Judaea.
    The dedication states that Pilate was prefect of Judaea, read praefectus Iudaeae. The early governors of Judaea were of prefect rank, the later were of procurator rank, beginning with Cuspius Fadus in 44 AD. The artifact is currently housed in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem,[15][16] while a replica stands at Caesarea.

    It does not list any of Pilate's administrative decisions.
    We do know from other Roman documents that Crucifixion was a common Roman punishment for many crimes. The Gospels say the torture was done by the soldiers. It says a crowd was present to watch, but does not say that the crowd was the perpetrator.
    There is no independent proof of the Gospels. They rely on each other for corroboration. Presumably, the idea is that the similarity of the disciple's memories is sufficient proof of the veracity, while the differences suggest that they did not conspire.

    (An irrelevant aside.
    Some of the tales are incongruent. In Mathew, Jesus instructs his disciple to steal a she-ass and her colt so he can ride into Jerusalem like a noble or rich man. In another, Jesus instructs the theft of a donkey and colt who have never had a person sit on their back. As a horse trainer, I can attest from personal experience that unless an equine is properly trained it will buck any rider off. If this is supposed to be part of a miracle, it's certainly a very odd one. Why does such a reputedly humble and wise teacher think he needs to appear so grand on this occasion - and while steal to achieve it?) This post was edited by Really? at February 13, 2018 5:48 AM MST
      February 11, 2018 10:50 PM MST
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  • 2411
    Your irrelevant aside is a bit peculiar. Riding on a donkey was a grand appearance in Bible times?

    “I Am . . . Lowly in Heart”
    JERUSALEM is buzzing with excitement. A great man is coming! Outside the city, people gather along the road. They are eager to welcome this man, for some are saying that he is an heir of King David and the rightful Ruler of Israel. A number bring palm fronds to wave in greeting; others spread out garments and tree branches on the road to smooth the way before him. (Matthew 21:7, 8; John 12:12, 13) Many likely wonder what kind of entry he will make.
    2 Some may be expecting a display of magnificence. They surely know of important men who made grand entrances. For example, David’s son Absalom proclaimed himself a king; he had 50 men running ahead of his chariot. (2 Samuel 15:1, 10) The Roman ruler Julius Caesar demanded even more fanfare; he once led a triumphal procession up to the Roman capitol, flanked by 40 elephants bearing lamps! Now, however, the people of Jerusalem await a far greater man. Whether the crowds fully understand that or not, this is the Messiah, the greatest man ever to live. When this future King comes into view, though, some may be surprised.
    3 They see no chariot, no runners, no horses—and certainly no elephants. No, Jesus is riding on a lowly beast of burden, an ass. No elaborate finery bedecks this rider or his mount. Instead of an expensive saddle, there are some garments that Jesus’ close followers have spread over the animal’s back. Why does Jesus choose to enter Jerusalem in such a lowly manner, when far lesser men have insisted on far greater pomp and ceremony?
    4 Jesus is fulfilling a prophecy: “Be very joyful . . . Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem. Look! Your king himself comes to you. He is righteous, yes, saved; humble, and riding upon an ass.” (Zechariah 9:9) This prophecy showed that God’s Anointed One, the Messiah, would one day reveal himself to the people of Jerusalem as the divinely appointed King. Further, his very manner of doing so, including his choice of a mount, would reveal a beautiful quality of his heart—humility.
    5 Jesus’ humility is among his most appealing qualities, one that is soul-stirring to contemplate. As we discussed in the preceding chapter, Jesus alone is “the way and the truth and the life.” (John 14:6) Clearly, none of the many billions of humans who have walked this earth has been nearly as important as God’s Son. Yet, Jesus never showed so much as a trace of the pride, the haughtiness, or the self-importance that afflicts countless imperfect humans. To be followers of Christ, we need to fight the tendency to give in to pride. (James 4:6) Remember, Jehovah hates haughtiness. It is vital, then, that we learn to imitate Jesus’ humility.


    (Matthew 21:7, 8) They brought the donkey and its colt, and they put their outer garments on them, and he sat on them. 8 Most of the crowd spread their outer garments on the road, while others were cutting down branches from the trees and spreading them on the road.
    (John 12:12, 13) The next day the large crowd that had come to the festival heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem. 13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, and they began to shout: “Save, we pray you! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name, the King of Israel!”
    (2 Samuel 15:1) After all these things, Abʹsa·lom acquired for himself a chariot and horses and 50 men to run before him.
    (2 Samuel 15:10) Abʹsa·lom now sent spies through all the tribes of Israel, saying: “As soon as you hear the sound of the horn, announce, ‘Abʹsa·lom has become king in Hebʹron!’”
    (Zechariah 9:9) Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion. Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem. Look! Your king is coming to you. He is righteous, bringing salvation, Humble and riding on a donkey, On a colt, the foal of a female donkey.
    (John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
    (James 4:6) However, the undeserved kindness that He gives is greater. So it says: “God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones.”
      February 12, 2018 2:10 AM MST
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  • 2876
    Yes, riding a horse, camel or donkey has always indicated wealth, even in poor farming communities. It costs a lot of money to feed the animal - especially during droughts. Feed must be bought unless one has fields of grass. The fields must be tended and kept weed free by the owner or labourers. One must own a stable and yard or land to keep the animal on, and one must have a shelter and fences to protect it. Someone must correctly trim the feet and rasp the teeth, or pay a farrier to do the work. All that has always cost a lot, and keeps the owner poor in respect of other needs - unless the person is really wealthy. In those times it was usually merchants who kept donkeys and camels, but donkeys were also used to take farm produce to market, and for travel. The poor always went on foot. The animal itself had value, just as cars and trucks do today, so to steal one was always considered an especially heinous theft. Wealthier people rode horses, especially the Romans. If one keeps alert while reading the Old and New Testaments, it is full of an extraordinary number of oddities which Sunday Schools and Christians seem to ignore. This post was edited by Really? at February 12, 2018 8:48 PM MST
      February 12, 2018 8:29 PM MST
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  • 2411
    Don't know where you live but around here they are not that expensive. We have had friends and neighbors that have had donkeys as pets as well as used donkeys as an inexpensive way to protect livestock from coyotes. Had a neighbor about a mile away that owned and trained quarter horse. Those were expensive. She used to have her hired help deliver horse manure to my small farm for free. We though about getting a couple of donkeys ourselves but we were a bit closer to the train and thought it would be cruel. The people who bought our place have donkeys now.

    https://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/sheep/facts/donkey2.htm

    Care & Management of Donkeys

    One of the distinct advantages of using donkeys as guard animals is that they can eat the same feed as the sheep, unless the hay is an extremely high protein legume. Lush pasture or high quality legume hay are not recommended because donkeys have a low energy requirement and are prone to obesity and certain metabolic disorders such as laminitis (founder) and hyperlipaemia if allowed to feed free choice. Donkeys do well on good quality grass hay and in most cases will require very little grain. If grain is fed, ensure the donkeys do not eat cattle or lamb rations containing rumensin as ingestion of monensin (active ingredient) by horses and other equine has been fatal.

    The amount of hay and grain fed will depend to a large extent on the size and body condition of the donkey. As a rule of thumb the total dry matter intake (hay and grain) for maintenance should be about 2.0% of body weight. For a 600 lb. (272 kg) donkey the daily total dry matter intake should be about 12 lb. (5.5 kg) on a dry matter basis or about 13.3 lb. (4.9 kg) on an as-fed basis This is about 1/3 of bale per day. Based on having 185 days of pasture and 180 days of hay, it would cost about $90/year ($0.50/day) to feed hay at $1.50/bale.

    When graining the sheep it may be advisable to either feed the donkey separately or at least gives the donkey its grain in a separate tub. Otherwise the bigger more dominant donkey may prevent the sheep access to the feeder or even butt the sheep potentially causing injuries.

    Donkeys should have their feet trimmed every 3 - 4 months which will cost about $75 - $100/year. Proper care of the donkey's feet is important if the donkey is expected to effectively chase predators away.

      February 13, 2018 8:34 AM MST
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  • 3772
    What did non-Christian authors say about Jesus?

    As far as we know, the first author outside the church to mention Jesus is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who wrote a history of Judaism around AD93. He has two references to Jesus. One of these is controversial because it is thought to be corrupted by Christian scribes (probably turning Josephus’s negative account into a more positive one), but the other is not suspicious – a reference to James, the brother of “Jesus, the so-called Christ”.

    About 20 years after Josephus we have the Roman politicians Pliny and Tacitus, who held some of the highest offices of state at the beginning of the second century AD. From Tacitus we learn that Jesus was executed while Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect in charge of Judaea (AD26-36) and Tiberius was emperor (AD14-37) – reports that fit with the timeframe of the gospels. Pliny contributes the information that, where he was governor in northern Turkey, Christians worshipped Christ as a god. Neither of them liked Christians – Pliny writes of their “pig-headed obstinacy” and Tacitus calls their religion a destructive superstition.

    Did ancient writers discuss the existence of Jesus?

    Strikingly, there was never any debate in the ancient world about whether Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. In the earliest literature of the Jewish Rabbis, Jesus was denounced as the illegitimate child of Mary and a sorcerer. Among pagans, the satirist Lucian and philosopher Celsus dismissed Jesus as a scoundrel, but we know of no one in the ancient world who questioned whether Jesus lived.
      February 11, 2018 11:05 PM MST
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  • 2876
    Since "history" was not a formal discipline at that time, but rather the record of who won battles and political arguments, the cult of Jesus would have seemed more significant to the Romans than whether the records of the founder's life was based on fact.

    Contemporary academic method demands proof to establish whether any particular person's alleged life was in fact real. An example is the life of Buddha. His life was never recorded while he was alive. That culture relied far more on memorising sermons. A year after his death, 500 of his monks convened and sat in meditation until all had attained enlightenment. Then, in convocation, they wrote down the Buddha's teachings of the Eightfold Path and the methods for different types of meditation. They also wrote three volumes of his short, medium and long discourses.
    But the life history of Buddha himself was not at first written down. That happened later, as the teachings began to become a religion. Slowly, his life story became both simplified and elaborated until it took on a form almost resembling fairy tale or teaching tale. When historians and anthropologists try to unravel fact from fiction, the fact and possible facts become so scant as to be little more than a skeleton.
      February 12, 2018 8:45 PM MST
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  • 1138
    He played a part  in his execution, at the demands of the Jewish crowds, who were manipulated themselves by the hateful and hypocritical religious leaders.
      February 12, 2018 11:04 PM MST
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  • 1262
    Q "Did Pontius Pilate really condemn Christ to death by the masses at the foot of Mount Calvary in reality?"



    1. I think it is widely agreed that no independent historical record has been discovered, as yet. The only "reality" we have to go by is that which is in the Biblical records. However, the Bible itself has four Gospel accounts each of which gives its own version of the "reality". Just like hundreds of sects have weaved their own theologies based on the same Biblical records so is it possible to see different "realities" from the same Biblical records.

    2. Below are just two realities [A and B] that can be gleaned from the Gospel accounts. In both of them there WAS a Jesus who was regarded by many Jews as their foretold Messiah who was going to free the Jews from the laws of the Romans and establish God's kingdom on earth where the Jews will be able to live by God's will [His laws] just as all live by God's laws in heaven. He taught people to pray to the heavenly Father "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" and sent his disciples to tell people to prepare for the kingdom of God. But this was not quick in coming and the increasing criticism of the priests by Jesus made them dislike him and suspect that he was the latest in a string of false Messiahs. For them, the best way to confirm their suspicions was to call for his crucifixion. If his crucifixion went through and he died on the cross then it would be a clear confirmation from God that he was an accursed by God because according to Deuteronomy 21:23 any person who dies by crucifixion (hanged upon a tree) is accursed by God. Anyone who is accursed by God cannot possibly be God's Messiah. So “Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death” Matthew 26:59 And when Pilate asked “What then should I do with Jesus who is called Christ?” They all answered, “Crucify Him!” Matthew 27:22. The Gospels then tell of the crucifixion of Jesus. For Jews this was the end of another false claim and they resumed their wait for the foretold Messiah. A wait which continues to this day.

    "Reality" A:
    This is the main and most popular "reality" which stands out from the New Testament account. It is the one in which Paul turns around the apparent failure of Jesus into a resounding success. Jesus conquers death through a crucial resurrection. Paul taught that as sin and death entered into the world through one [perfect] man [Adam] so they left the world through another [perfect man, Jesus]. Romans 5:18 is an example. In 2 Timothy 2:8, Paul tells his audience to “Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL” and he made that "reality" stick with his warning to the hesitant in 1 Corinthians.15:17 that "if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins". So people would hold on tight to the death and resurrection "reality" because their very salvation depended on it.

    "Reality" B:
    Though this "reality" is naturally very highly controversial it is still very easy to glean from the same Biblical books chosen to convey the most popular "reality" A given above.

    In this "reality" Jesus never taught about sin entering the world and leaving through his death and resurrection. He taught people to pray to God for forgiveness by saying "forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". He does not teach of God wanting human sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.

    In this "reality", though hoisted onto the cross, Jesus does not actually die. He hinted in Matthew 12:40 that as Jonah was miraculously alive despite being definitely dead as far as onlookers were concerned so would he be alive despite appearing dead to eye witnesses.

    In John 17:4 he says to God "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.”

    As the moment of his arrest grew closer Jesus realised that his disciples were too weak to afford him any protection [“Were you not able to keep watch for one hour?" he asked them] His desperation and plea not to die became such that "being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground" in the Garden of Gethsemane, according to Luke 22:44.

    Hebrews 5:7 says that because Jesus was a righteous man, God heard, meaning answered, his earnest prayers. It says, “Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard ("had his prayers answered” in some versions) in that he feared (“because of his reverent submission” in some versions);” Anyway why would God not answer the prayer of His son, when Jesus himself said, “Ask, and it will be given to you….. For everyone who asks receives” (Matthew 7:8) In Psalm 20:6 we read of God saving His Messiah. The verse says, “Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.” Furthermore, the name of Jesus in Aramaic is Yeshoo'ah [one who was saved] not Yeshaa'ah [one who saved].

    So how did it happen? Well crucifixion is a slow torturous death that can take days, that's why it was chosen by the Romans. Jesus was on the cross only for a few hours. Where death was taking too many days the Romans broke the legs of the crucified to speed it up. Jesus did not have his legs broken. Even in modern cities, fully equipped hospitals, high tech equipment and fully qualified doctors, elbeit extremely rare but still, death has been wrongly certified. None of those conditions applied to Jesus so it is very highly possible that a medically certified death did not occur. When Pilate was asked for permission to take down the body of Jesus he was amazed that he should have died so quick.

    Had Jesus been buried in the ground that would have been the end of him. He was put in a spacious tomb of a secret sympathiser.

    When he came out of the tomb Jesus was disguised as a gardener so that he would not be easily recognise, otherwise word would get around to his enemies and this time they would make doubly sure he died.

    Jesus then appeared to his disciples in the upper room and they were frightened to see him because they thought he had died and what they were seeing must be a spirit coming to haunt them. Jesus saw the fear at Luke 24:38 "And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?” Jesus was quick to reassure them he was no ghost but the very Jesus that had been nailed up. So he showed them the wounds saying. “39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself” Do people recognise one another by hands and feet? Of course not. He was pointing out the wounds from the crucifixion. For firmer evidence that he was not a resurrected being, a spirit with ghostly appearance of wounds, he said “handle me, and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered,” A resurrected being cannot die again and therefore is beyond need of food to keep himself alive. So to dispel any lingering doubts “he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43And he took it, and did eat before them.” to prove to them conclusively that he was thoroughly a living human being.

    3. You don't have to say anything if you don't see any holes in "reality" B, but if you do see holes then feel free to point out at least the biggest one.
    This post was edited by CLURT at February 13, 2018 6:29 PM MST
      February 13, 2018 1:19 PM MST
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  • 2411
    We had this discussion before. 

    What a convoluted conglomeration of words you put together. Wasn't Jesus' main focus on the sanctification of God's name and God's will rather than personal comfort? Did Jesus not pray that his Father's will take place over his?
     
    (Luke 22:41-44) And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw away, and he bent his knees and began to pray, 42 saying: “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” 43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 But he was in such agony that he kept praying more earnestly; and his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground.
    (Hebrews 5:7) During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.
    (Matthew 7:8, 9) for everyone asking receives, and everyone seeking finds, and to everyone knocking, it will be opened. 9 Indeed, which one of you, if his son asks for bread, will hand him a stone?
    (John 12:27, 28) Now I am troubled, and what should I say? Father, save me out of this hour. Nevertheless, this is why I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have glorified it and will glorify it again.”
    (Matthew 6:9, 10) “You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.
    (Matthew 26:42) Again, a second time, he went off and prayed: “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away unless I drink it, let your will take place.”
    (John 17:4) I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do.
    (John 13:31) When, therefore, he had gone out, Jesus said: “Now the Son of man is glorified, and God is glorified in connection with him.
    (Philippians 2:8) More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake.
    (1 Timothy 2:4-6) whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.
    (John 10:17, 18) This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again. 18 No man takes it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. This commandment I received from my Father.”

    Jesus didn't just hint, he clearly said that he would be killed.
    (Isaiah 53:5) But he was pierced for our transgression; He was crushed for our errors. He bore the punishment for our peace, And because of his wounds we were healed.
    (Isaiah 53:8) Because of restraint and judgment he was taken away; And who will concern himself with the details of his generation? For he was cut off from the land of the living; Because of the transgression of my people he received the stroke
    (Daniel 9:24-27) “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”
    Matthew 20:28) Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”
    (Mark 10:45) For even the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”
    (Matthew 26:28) for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.
    (Luke 22:19, 20) Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body, which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, he did the same with the cup after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf.
    (Matthew 16:21) From that time forward, Jesus began explaining to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed, and on the third day be raised up.

    (Psalm 31:5) Into your hand I entrust my spirit. You have redeemed me, O Jehovah, the God of truth.
    (Matthew 27:50) Again Jesus called out with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
    (Luke 23:46) And Jesus called out with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” After he said this, he expired.
    (John 19:30) When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said: “It has been accomplished!” and bowing his head, he gave up his spirit.
    (Mark 15:37) But Jesus let out a loud cry and expired.

    (Luke 23:33) And when they got to the place called Skull, they nailed him to the stake there alongside the criminals, one on his right and one on his left.
    (Acts 2:23, 24) This man, who was handed over by the determined will and foreknowledge of God, you fastened to a stake by the hand of lawless men, and you did away with him. 24 But God resurrected him by releasing him from the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held fast by it.
    (Acts 5:30) The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake.

      February 13, 2018 4:37 PM MST
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  • 1262
    If you're defending reality A or presenting a variant of it I have no problem with that.

    If you think the reality I have presented as B cannot be extracted from the Bible or has a major weakness in its reasoning, flow or consistency then I'll be pleased to consider. 

    I'll edit B to make it easier to read. To allow comparison between the pre-edited and post-edit versions I'm copy pasting the pre-edit version here:

    "Reality" B:
    Though this "reality" is naturally very highly controversial it is still very easy to glean from the same Biblical books chosen to convey the most popular "reality" A given above. In this "reality" Jesus never taught about sin entering the world and leaving through his death and resurrection. He taught people to pray to God for forgiveness by saying "forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". He does not teach of God wanting human sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. In this "reality", though hoisted onto the cross, Jesus does not actually die. He hinted in Matthew 12:40 that as Jonah was miraculously alive despite being definitely dead as far as onlookers were concerned so would he be alive despite appearing dead to eye witnesses. In John 17:4 he says to God "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.” He realised that his disciples were too weak to afford him any protection [“Were you not able to keep watch for one hour?" he asked them] His desperation and plea not to die became such that "being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground" in the Garden of Gethsemane, according to Luke 22:44. Hebrews 5:7 says that because Jesus was a righteous man, God heard, meaning answered, his earnest prayers. It says, “Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard ("had his prayers answered” in some versions) in that he feared (“because of his reverent submission” in some versions);” Anyway why would God not answer the prayer of His son, when Jesus himself said, “Ask, and it will be given to you….. For everyone who asks receives” (Matthew 7:8) In Psalm 20:6 we read of God saving His Messiah. The verse says, “Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.” Furthermore, the name of Jesus in Aramaic is Yeshoo'ah [one who was saved] not Yeshaa'ah [one who saved]. So how did it happen? Well crucifixion is a slow torturous death that can take days, that's why it was chosen by the Romans. Jesus was on the cross only for a few hours. Where death was taking too many days the Romans broke the legs of the crucified to speed it up. Jesus did not have his legs broken. Even in modern cities, fully equipped hospitals, high tech equipment and fully qualified doctors, elbeit extremely rare but still, death has been wrongly certified. None of those conditions applied to Jesus so it is very highly possible that a medically certified death did not occur. When Pilate was asked for permission to take down the body of Jesus he was amazed that he should have died so quick. Had he been buried in the ground that would have been the end of him. He was put in a spacious tomb of a secret sympathiser. When he came out of the tomb Jesus was disguised as a gardener so that he would not be easily recognise, otherwise word would get around to his enemies and this time they would make doubly sure he died. When he appeared to his disciples in the upper room they were frightened to see him because they thought he had died and what they were seeing must be a spirit coming to haunt them. Jesus saw the fear at Luke 24:38 "And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?” Jesus was quick to reassure them he was no ghost but the very Jesus that had been nailed up. So he showed them the wounds saying. “39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself” Do people recognise one another by hands and feet? Of course not. He was pointing out the wounds from the crucifixion. For firmer evidence that he was not a resurrected being, a spirit with ghostly appearance of wounds, he said “handle me, and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered,” A resurrected being cannot die again and therefore is beyond need of food to keep himself alive. So to dispel any lingering doubts “he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43And he took it, and did eat before them.” to prove to them conclusively that he was thoroughly a living human being. 
      February 13, 2018 6:14 PM MST
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  • 2411
    The scriptures are clear as cited above. The Messiah was prophesied to die in the Hebrew scriptures, Jesus said he was to be killed, the Christian Greek Scriptures reveal that Jesus was killed.

    If you give more weight to scripture than your explanations, you might get somewhere. Claiming Muslims believe the Bible and then throwing out much of it makes it hard to take you seriously. Remember, Islam, the Quran and Hadiths don't play any part in your understanding of the Bible.

    Another reason Muslims don't like Paul:
    (Colossians 2:8) Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;
    (Ephesians 5:6) Let no man deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience.


    EDIT: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002159?q=IMPALEMENT&p=par

    [The record does not say whether the evildoers impaled alongside Jesus were nailed or simply tied to the stakes. If only tied, this might explain why, when Jesus was found dead, they were still alive and had to have their legs broken. (Joh 19:32, 33) Death by suffocation soon followed the breaking of their legs, since, as some think, this would have prevented the raising of the body to ease tension of chest muscles. Of course, this is not a conclusive point on why the evildoers outlived Jesus, for they had not experienced the mental and physical torture inflicted on Jesus. He had previously undergone an all-night ordeal at the hands of his enemies, in addition to being beaten by the Roman soldiers, perhaps to the point that he could not carry his own torture stake, as was the custom.—Mr 14:32–15:21; Lu 22:39–23:26.] This post was edited by texasescimo at February 14, 2018 8:55 AM MST
      February 13, 2018 6:39 PM MST
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