Discussion » Questions » Religion and Spirituality » Is it fair to have higher expectations of people who are professed Christians?

Is it fair to have higher expectations of people who are professed Christians?

There's a song that I learned in church camp many years ago. The chorus goes "And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love. And they'll know we are Christians by our love". 


~

Posted - April 22, 2018

Responses


  • 2657
    Assuming you are saying JW's are false Christians, as expected from a life long Catholic as yourself, what do JW's teach that is false?
      April 25, 2018 4:24 PM MDT
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  • 7280
    I saw this on the home page and actually thought you might be talking to me.

    You weren't, but I'm here so---your denial of the triune nature of God, and your insistence that Jesus Christ did not found a Church as a part of God's continued interaction with man are the most glaring.

    And of course, your continued insistence that every warning about "false" teaching that you quote applies to everyone except the JW's.

    I think it funny---but ultimately just very sad---that you think that you have bailed God out by interpreting the bible for Him.

    Is that pride or arrogance?---sounds like the JW's as a group might themselves fit the definition of an idol.


      April 25, 2018 6:05 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Jesus is not the founder of the Catholic Church, in fact, everything the Catholic Church teaches is in opposition to the Bible and Jesus. Your 4th century triune God is also in opposition to God and Christ and the inspired scriptures.
    Your faith in Popes and Priest instead of the scriptures is disturbing and sad.
      April 26, 2018 11:57 AM MDT
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  • 7280
    The JW's have 3 major issues that completely taint your interpretation of the bible---they do not realize the one Abrahamic God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a trinity) is the real God; they do not realize that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ; and JW's think that God's explanation of the new reality established by the redemption is restricted to the bible.

    JW's are playing solitaire with a deck of 51.

    And JW's keep playing the game and knocking on doors because they think that they are doing something useful and virtuous because it keeps them busy.

    And their effort is both wasteful and useless, because it is based on an incomplete awareness of reality and the actual number of cards that are required to be successful in understanding of the bible.

    And I find it ludicrous to think that God, in a final attempt to explain himself, is using the agency of JW's who came along so late in history as His final attempt to reveal Himself.

      April 26, 2018 1:13 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Very good on the first part as JW's do restrict their doctrines to the Bible. From reading the Bible and human decency, it is obvious that the Catholic Church is not from Jesus. From reading the Bible and common sense, God is not a trinity. 

    As far as late in history, you have no clue what the Bible says about an apostasy from true worship after the death of the apostles with a return to true worship in the final part of the days. Some good user names if you decide to change: Clueless Tom. Bible illiterate Tom. 
      April 28, 2018 4:15 AM MDT
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  • 7280
    You say "From reading the Bible and common sense, God is not a trinity."--

    So you think God is limited to being no more than what the JW's common sense allows Him to be.--

    Listen closely and you may hear His laughter at your trying to limit Him.--

    God has a great sense of humor.  If the JW's were Shakespeare, you would be the comic relief in his plays.
      May 6, 2018 1:39 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    For over 3,500 years of Bible writing, God revealed himself as one. Three hundred years after the death of the apostles, then all of a sudden God is three?

    (Acts 20:29, 30) I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
    (Hebrews 13:9) Do not be led astray by various and strange teachings, for it is better for the heart to be strengthened by undeserved kindness than by foods, which do not benefit those occupied with them.
      May 6, 2018 7:44 PM MDT
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  • 7280
    He's still one God---now we know there His nature is triune.

    The JW's have thrown God in a locked room and refuse to listen to anything He has to say to His creation that He hasn't already said in the bible.

    Might want to check that room---He's not there.

    But if you want to find Him, you can always find Him through the Catholic Church.

    Genesis is "dated" around 1445 BC was---Revelation around 96 AD  Why do you say "3500 years of bible writing?"
      May 7, 2018 10:51 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    Where did the God of the Bible say he was triune?
    (Deuteronomy 6:4) “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
    (Romans 3:30) Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith.
    (1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

    JW's don't just believe every strange teaching.

    Sorry, should have said 1,600 years of Bible writing, starting about 3,500 years ago.
    Started about 1513 B.C.E., completed about 98 C.E.
      May 7, 2018 5:46 PM MDT
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  • 492


    Catholics do not shun their family or friends if these family members or friends leave the congregation. I have not attended a Catholic mass in years nor continued to be active in the church. Tom Jackson can tell you that I am welcome to join him at mass or any church activity, anytime, without getting any dirty looks. Shunning family and friends is wrong and hypocrisy.

    Christians are baptized into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not dedicating and identifying themselves into a congregation's association
    with a spirit-directed governing body (the board of directors at the WTB&TS).

    Charles Taze Russell claimed that the Bible could be only understood according to his interpretations.
    This is a dangerous arrangement since he controlled what was written in the Watchtower magazine.
    This kind of assertion is typical among leaders of cult religions.

    Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into their history or
    old Watchtower literature which is stuffed with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies.
    Instead, they are indoctrinated repeatedly against basic Christian doctrines and into the notion that they
    alone are the true servants of God and that all others are either in "Christendom" or simply unbelievers.

    The Watchtower admits that brainwashing is neccesary for their doctrine.
    From: Watchtower June 1, 1953. P. 350, par.24, article called, Minds Must be Cleansed.
    In these closing days of wickedness Jehovah’s people must demonstrate holiness.
    They must not foul their minds with the filthy mental food on the propaganda tables of this old world,
    but must feed on the feast of fat things Jehovah provides. Minds must be cleansed and made over,
    mental circuits formed by old-world thinking and acting faded out and new ones put in according to new-world specifications.
    By privately studying regularly, by attending all meetings regularly, and by engaging in all features of the preaching work
    regularly mental circuits are deepened and such good activities become habitual, not at all the struggle they are when
    the mental circuits are weak and faint because used only occasionally. For ourselves and for others, make them strong!

    JWs believe Michael the archangel is Jesus and have it all wrong.

    Exposure of the WT Society's false predictions has created doubts and concerns about the organization. The Society has responded by
    publishing articles and books in which they admit they have made mistakes in their historical predictions and doctrinal teaching.
    They excuse these errors by attributing them to human fallibility and by saying the WT Society has never claimed to be inspired by God.
    This is a bold deception, since past Watchtower magazines are referred to as "God's message," and have carried instructions from Jehovah
    in quotation marks. A Watchtower magazine as recently as August 1, 1995 stated, "Jehovah particularly teaches his people by means of
    a weekly study of the Bible, using The Watchtower as a teaching aid."

    The WT acknowledges that “Jehovah” is not the true pronunciation of God’s name.    














    This post was edited by antibiotic at April 25, 2018 8:14 PM MDT
      April 25, 2018 8:12 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Neither do JW's shun their family or friends if these family members or friends leave the congregation. I left for 3 years, was not shunned at all the few times I went to the hall or ran into a Christian. Other than for reading or translating the Bible, marrying a Protestant or scientific discoveries, who else if any does the Catholic Church excommunicate?

    (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”


    So cleansing your self of bad thoughts and actions is the same as brainwashing to you?
    (Romans 12:2) And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
    (Ephesians 4:23, 24) And you should continue to be made new in your dominant mental attitude, 24 and should put on the new personality that was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.
    (Colossians 3:10) and clothe yourselves with the new personality, which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it,
    (2 Corinthians 7:1) Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
    (Hebrews 9:14) how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?




    Objecting to people using a Bible based magazine as a teaching aid, how do you feel about:

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm


    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Athanasian Creed

     At various points the author calls attention to the penalty incurred by those who refuse to accept any of the articles therein set down.

     

    The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible

     

    So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

     

    So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal

     

    Who, then, is the author? The results of recent inquiry make it highly probable that the Creed first saw the light in the fourth century, during the life of the great Eastern patriarch, or shortly after his death

     

    The "damnatory", or "minatory clauses", are the pronouncements contained in the symbol, of the penalties which follow the rejection of what is there proposed for our belief. It opens with one of them: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith". The same is expressed in the verses beginning: "Furthermore, it is necessary" etc., and "For the right Faith is" etc., and finally in the concluding verse: "This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved". Just as the Creed states in a very plain and precise way what the Catholic Faith is concerning the important doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation, so it asserts with equal plainness and precision what will happen to those who do not faithfully and steadfastly believe in these revealed truths..

    From a dogmatic standpoint, the merely historical question of the authorship of the Creed, or of the time it made its appearance, is of secondary consideration.  The fact alone that it is approved by the Church as expressing its mind on the fundamental truths with which it deals, is all we need to know. 






     I know JW's have made mistakes in the past, especially early on after well over 1,000 years of apostasy with the threat of death from your Church would that be expected. My question was: What do JW's teach that is false? (I prefer to use the Bible as truth rather than just your and Tom's words.)


    EDIT: As far as Jehovah being the true pronunciation of God's name, the English Jehovah, the English Jesus, the English Jehoshaphat were not used in Hebrew or Greek. Much of that discussed here: https://answermug.com/forums/topic/54139/what-reasons-are-given-for-removing-gods-name-from-the-bible-ar/view/page/3 This post was edited by texasescimo at April 28, 2018 11:15 PM MDT
      April 26, 2018 12:22 PM MDT
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  • 7280
    No, you use what I characterize as your misunderstanding and misapplication of the bible to attempt to make your point.

    But, regardless, stick to the bible---you interpret the Catholic encyclopedia with the same insight by which you interpret the bible---and with the same lack of knowledge, which is referred to as "consequent ignorance" in Christian philosophy.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm
      April 26, 2018 1:24 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Show me what the Bible says and what it really means, where I am misinterpreting it. for example, from John 17:3, I believe that the Father is the only true God and from 1 Cor 8:5-6 that there is one God, the Father. How do you read so as to get a triune God?

    (John 17:1-3) Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
    (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.


    I didn't interpret the Catholic Encyclopedia, I quoted it. If it's wrong, that's on you or them, yes?


    EDIT: What do you think of the following after a Priest said: “We were better without God's law than the pope's."
    Maister Tyndall hearing that, answered him, I defy the Pope and all his laws, and said, if God spare my life ere many years, I will cause a boy that driveth the ploughshall know more of the Scripture than thou dost.

    Do Catholics refer to those days as the good ole days, when they could burn people at the stake for teaching Bible truth? Of course, you likely think William Tyndale was an evil person worthy of being strangled and burned at the stake, yes? This post was edited by texasescimo at April 27, 2018 7:23 AM MDT
      April 26, 2018 2:55 PM MDT
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  • 7280
    Pretty much anything you try to back up with a bible quote is false---either outright erroneous or at best incomplete.

    And precise belief requires the theological gift of Faith.  It would appear that you have the gift of knowing that He is real, but perhaps that is what He has chosen to give you so far.  But to me, you elucidate a lesser God than the one that I believe exists---and if that is true, why would I ever believe you are correct?

    You can compel neither mine nor anyone else's belief---Why do you insist on trying?  What makes you think that you alone have ascertained the one and only true message of the bible to the exclusion of anyone else? 

    I had a set of the Encyclopedia Americana about 40 years ago  It had excellent articles about various advanced math and physics concepts.

    But I guarantee that you would not learn how to solve differential equations by reading the article on that subject---you just don't have the required background in mathematics to understand it.

    The same applies to the Catholic Encyclopedia---you will never learn about Catholicism from it.  You just don't have the necessary background in philosophy and theology to understand it either.

    Most Catholics who have not been formally educated in those disciplines refer to the Catholic Catechism.  (When it was being written some 40 or so years ago, I would occasionally call and talk to the seminarians who were helping to make the final version more easily understood.  Very interesting conversations.)
















      April 26, 2018 4:13 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    It is sad that you do not accept the Bible as inspired. You use your preconceived ideas as a litmus test to doctrine instead of the Bible. 
    There are some Catholics that can see through the smoke screens and come out of false religion. (Rev 18)

    (2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,

    (Romans 10:16-21) Nevertheless, they did not all obey the good news. For Isaiah says: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard from us?” 17 So faith follows the thing heard. In turn, what is heard is through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the ends of the inhabited earth their message.” 19 But I ask, Israel did not fail to know, did they? First Moses says: “I will incite you to jealousy through that which is not a nation; I will incite you to violent anger through a foolish nation.” 20 But Isaiah becomes very bold and says: “I was found by those who were not seeking me; I became known to those who were not asking for me.” 21 But he says regarding Israel: “All day long I have spread out my hands toward a disobedient and obstinate people.”

    (Acts 17:11, 12) Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 12 Therefore, many of them became believers, and so did quite a few of the reputable Greek women as well as some of the men.

    (1 Corinthians 4:6) Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other.

    (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.



    You are correct, I am not in to empty philosophy like your Church teaches.

    (1 Timothy 4:1-3) However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron. 3 They forbid marriage and command people to abstain from foods that God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.

    (Colossians 2:8) Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;

    (Ephesians 5:6) Let no man deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience.
    (Hebrews 13:9) Do not be led astray by various and strange teachings, for it is better for the heart to be strengthened by undeserved kindness than by foods, which do not benefit those occupied with them.

    When you have time, I would like to get your thoughts on the subject you brought up abut "Which god is the real god?---Jesus or Jehovah?"

    https://answermug.com/forums/topic/54875/the-u-s-told-you-iraq-used-chemical-weapons-and-we-went-to-war/view/post_id/467393

      April 27, 2018 7:00 AM MDT
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  • 7280
    I know the bible is inspired---it's the JW's interpretations of it that are not.

    And your comment that "I (you) are not in to (sic) empty philosophy like your (my) Church teaches," is just another indication to me that you do not have the credentials to discuss the bible and / or the Catholic Church---or God Himself, for that matter---at this level.

    The last time---about 50 years ago---that I opened the door to a JW, he said "Hello, I'm a JW."  I responded, that's OK---you don't have to apologize," and I closed the door.

    Consider this response to be the internet equivalent of that door.  Feel free to pass the word.
      April 27, 2018 11:02 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    You are sooooo funny. Why does every single verse need an adverse interpretation beyond what it says? I know that there are parables and Revelation that need interpretation with the help of other scriptures in the rest of the Bible but to you nothing is straightforward. Really more sad than funny as there are over a billion Catholics in the world that believe something similar to you rather than the Bible. 

    (Revelation 181-24) ...4And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. 6 Repay her in the way she treated others, yes, pay her back double for the things she has done; in the cup she has mixed, mix a double portion for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong. 9 “And the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality with her and lived with her in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her when they see the smoke from her burning.
    ...
    24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
      April 27, 2018 2:38 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    All in your head. Open your heart to the scriptures and see the light Tom. The history of your Church condemns it. Of course, those in to tradition choose to remain blind. 

    (Mark 7:9) Further, he said to them: “You skillfully disregard the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
    (Mark 7:13) Thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like this.”

    As far as convincing you "of the evils and ignorance of Catholicism---by definition an impossible task".-- That is because your conscience has not been trained by the Bible and you accept atrocities as part of God's economy of salvation.

    Small sample of atrocities committed and admitted by your Church, although whitewashing with excuses:

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06244b.htm

    Martin V also ordered the Bishops of Porto and Alba to take steps against all Fraticelli "in the Roman province, the March of Ancona, the Duchy of Spoleto and other localities" (7 June, 1427). On 27 January of the same year, Martin V had permitted the Observants of Ancona to occupy the monastery of the Fraticelli at Castro l'Ermita as a first step in the campaign against the Fraticelli of that neighbourhood. On 1 June, 1428, he commanded theBishop of Ancona to enforce his rulings strictly in Maiolati, to put all suspects to the rack, destroy their village, separate the children from heretical parents, and disperse the elder population. A circular letter, which the Fraticelli addressed to all Christiandom, proved ineffectual and their doom was sealed. John of Capistranoand James of the March burned thirty-six of their establishments or dispersed the members and a number were burned at the stake at Florence and Fabriano, at the latter place in the presence of the pope. St. James of March, commissioned by Nicholas V to proceed against them (1449), wrote the famous "Dialogus contra Fraticellos", which he first published in 1452, making some additions to it later on. According to this the main establishments of the Fraticelli were situated in the valley of Jesi, at Maiolati, Poggio Cupo, Massaccia, and Mergo. They had also constituted bishops in other districts where there were a sufficient number of adherents. They made frequent journeys for propaganda purposes, especially in Tuscany. Some dressed partly as Minorites, some as hermits, often disguisingthemselves for the sake of protection. Their doctrine was a résumé of their former sectarian errors: the whole Roman Church had deserted the true Faith since the time of John XXII (1323); they alone constituted the true Church and retained the sacraments and the priesthood.

     

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08431a.htm    (2nd paragraph from the top)

    His vast correspondence shows that John XXII followed closely the political and religious movements in all countries, and sought on every possible occasion the advancement of ecclesiastical interests. Nor was he less insistent than his predecessors on the supreme influence of the papacy in political matters. For this reason he found himself involved in grievous disputes which lasted throughout the greater portion of his pontificate. Great difficulties were also raised for the pope by the controversies among the Franciscans, which Clement V had tried in vain to settle. A number of Franciscans, the so-called "Spirituals," or "Fraticelli," adherents of the most rigorous views, refused to submit to that pope's decision, and after the deaths of Clement V and Gonzalvez, General of the Minorites, they rebelled, especially in the South of France and in Italy, declaring that the pope had no power to dispense them from their rule, since this was nothing other than the Gospel. They then proceeded to drive the Conventuals from their houses, and take possession of the same, thereby causing scandal and much disorder. The new general, Michael of Cesena, appealed to John, who in 1317 ordered the refractory friars to submit to their superiors, and caused the doctrines and opinions of the Spirituals to be investigated. On 23 January, 1318, many of their doctrines were declared erroneousThose who refused to yield were treated as hereticsmany were burned at the stake, and some escaped to Sicily.

     

     


     


    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm

     

     


    Church legislation on heresy
    ..
    ..
    This legislation remained in force and with even greater severity in the kingdom formed by the victorious barbarian invaders on the ruins of the Roman Empire in the West. The burning of heretics was first decreed in the eleventh century. The Synod of Verona (1184) imposed on bishops the duty to search out the heretics in their dioceses and to hand them over to the secular power. Other synods, and the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) under Pope Innocent III, repeated and enforced this decree, especially the Synod of Toulouse (1229), which established inquisitors in every parish (one priest and two laymen). Everyone was bound to denounce heretics, the names of the witnesses were kept secret; after 1243, when Innocent IV sanctioned the laws of Emperor Frederick II and of Louis IXagainst heretics,  torture was applied in trials; the guilty persons were delivered up to the civil authorities and actually burnt at the stake. Paul III (1542) established, and Sixtus V organized, the Roman Congregation of the Inquisition, or Holy Office, a regular court of justice for dealing with heresy and heretics (seeROMAN CONGREGATIONS). The Congregation of the Index, instituted by St. Pius V, has for its province the care of faith and morals in literature; it proceeds against printed matter very much as the Holy Office proceeds against persons (see INDEX OF PROHIBITED BOOKS). The present pope [1909], Pius X, has decreed the establishment in every diocese of a board of censors and of a vigilance committee whose functions are to find out and report on writings and persons tainted with the heresy of Modernism (Encyclical "Pascendi", 8 Sept., 1907). The present-day legislation against heresy has lost nothing of its ancient severity; but the penalties on heretics are now only of the spiritual order; all the punishments which require the intervention of the secular arm have fallen into abeyance. Even in countries where the cleavage between the spiritual and secular powers does not amount to hostility or complete severance, the death penalty, confiscation ofgoods, imprisonment, etc., are no longer inflicted on heretics. The spiritual penalties are of two kinds: latae and ferendae sententiae. The former are incurred by the mere fact of heresy, no judicial sentence being required; the latter are inflicted after trial by an ecclesiastical court, or by a bishop acting ex informata conscientia, that is, on his own certain knowledge, and dispensing with the usual procedure

     

     



    https://www.ccg.org/weblibs/study-papers/p185.html
     
    www.ccg.org
    Christian Churches of God. No. 185 . Socinianism, Arianism and Unitarianism (Edition 1.5 19961221-20150612) The term Socinianism has been applied quite indiscriminately over a large body of anti-Trinitarian doctrine.

    In 1192 bishop Otto of Toul ordered all Waldenses to be delivered up in chains to the episcopal tribunal. In 1194 Alphonso II of Aragon ordered their banishment from his dominion and forbade them shelter or food. The Council of Genoa (1197) affirmed these provisions and ordered death by burning against the Church. 

     

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06796a.htm  (3rd paragraph from the bottom)

     

    Gregory IX was very severe towards heretics, who in those times were universally looked upon as traitors and punished accordingly. Upon the request of King Louis IX of France, he sent Cardinal Romanus as legate to assist the king in his crusade against the Albigenses. At the synod which the papal legate convened at Toulouse in November, 1229, it was decreed that all heretics and their abettors should be delivered to the nobles and magistrates for their due punishment, which, in case of obstinacy, was usually death. When in 1224 Frederick II ordered that heretics in Lombardy should be burnt at the stake, Gregory IX, who was then papal legate for Lombardy, approved and published the imperial law. During his enforced absence from Rome (1228-1231) the heretics remained unmolested and became very numerous in the city. In February, 1231, therefore, the pope enacted a law for Rome that heretics condemned by an ecclesiastical court should be delivered to the secular power to receive their "due punishment". This "due punishment" was death by fire for the obstinate and imprisonment for life for the penitent. In pursuance of this law a number of Patarini were arrested in Rome in 1231, the obstinate were burned at the stake, the others were imprisoned in theBenedictine monasteries of Monte Cassino and Cava (Ryccardus de S. Germano, ad annum 1231, in Mon. Germ. SS., XIX, 363).It must not be thought, however, that Gregory IX dealt more severely with heretics than other rulers did. Death by fire was the common punishment for heretics and traitors in those times. Up to the time of Gregory IX, the duty of searching out heretics belonged to the bishops in their respective dioceses. The so-called Monastic Inquisition was established by Gregory IX, who in his Bulls of 13, 20, and 22 April, 1233, appointed the Dominicans as the official inquisitors for all dioceses of France (Ripoil and Bremond, "Bullarium Ordinia Fratrum Praedicatorum", Rome, 1729, I, 47).

     

     

     

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14761a.htm  (2nd paragraph from the bottom)

    With regard to the toleration of Christian heretics and schismatics the reader will do well to consult the article INQUISITION. No very systematic measures of repression seem to have come into practice before the twelfth century. The aggressive attitude adopted in the case of the Priscillianists (q.v.) and Donatists was owing less to the action of the bishops than to that of the emperor. On the other hand, it cannot be disputed that after the authority of the popes was firmly established, ecclesiastical campaigns were undertaken against the Cathari, the Waldenses, and Albigenses as well as later on against the followers of Wicklif andHus. Moreover isolated executions for heresy (burning at the stake being commonly employed for this purpose) were known before the twelfth century both in East and West; though at the same time the actual infliction of the punishment, then as after, must be regarded as an act of the civil power rather than that of any ecclesiastical tribunal. But though an Inquisition of heretical practices may be regarded as having been first formally set up, at any rate in embryo, about the second half of the thirteenth century no measures of extreme severity were in the beginning prescribed or generally adopted. The Fourth Council of Lateran in 1215 imposed as a penalty the deprivation of property and civil stakes. Convicted heretics even though repentant, were excluded from public offices and were compelled to wear a badge. If their retractation was insincere they were liable to be confined in a public prison. At the same time it must not be forgotten that all these medieval heresies, as such an historian as Gairdner has noticed (Lollardy, I, 46), struck at the foundations of social order. M. Guiraud's account of the extravagant teaching of the Cathari and Albigenses is conclusive upon the point. It cannot be doubted that the severities which then began to be exercised in the name of religion were prompted by no lust for blood. It seemed rather to orthodox churchmen that the Church was so menaced by these subversive doctrines that her very existence was at stake.

     

     

      https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04259b.htm

    (2nd paragraph from the bottom)

    ...From the beginning of the thirteenth century the German ecclesiastical authority, in union with the civil power, had proceeded vigorously against all heresies. The conflict in which Conrad had so large a share was waged according to the medieval views of public right and welfare. The first process in which he took part was that directed against Heinrich Minnike,Provost of Goslar. In 1224 after a trial that lasted two years, Minnike was declared guilty of heresy, delivered to the secular arm, and perished at the stake. In the following years Conrad preached with great vigour against the heretics and was warmly praised and encouraged to greater zeal by Gregory IX in a letter of 1227. The Archbishops of Trier and of Mainz both wrote to the pope in 1231 in praise of the extraordinary activity of Conrad and reported his triumphs over several heretical leaders. Thereupon Pope Gregory conferred on Conrad (11 October, 1231) the extensive authority of papal inquisitor, the first such officer appointed in Germany. At the same time the pope released Conrad from the obligation of following the ordinary canonical procedure (te a cognitionibus causarum habere volumus excusatum) and authorized him to proceed resolutely against heretics as he thought best, but with due observance of the papal decrees on the subject.

     

     

      https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06105c.htm

    The Medici

     

    Lorenzo was succeeded by his son, Piero, but he did not long retain popularity, especially after he had ceded the fortresses of Pietra Santa and Pontremoli to Charles VIII of France, who entered Italy with the avowed purpose of overthrowing the Aragonese dominion in Naples. ...

    .. The last had for chief the Dominican friar, Girolamo Savonarola of Ferrara, who hoped by their aid to restore in Florence piety and a Christian discipline of life, i.e. to establish in the city the Kingdom of Christ. In fact, Christ was publicly proclaimed Lord or Signore of Florence (Rex populi Florentini). (For the irreligious and rationalistic elements in the city at this period seeGUICCIARDINI and MACHIAVELLI). Savonarola's intemperate speeches were the occasion of his excommunication, and in 1498 he was publicly burned.The Arrabiatiwere then in power. In 1512 Cardinal Giovanni de' Medici purchased at a great price the support of the Spanish captain Cardona and sent him to Florence to demand the return of the Medici. Fearing worse evils the people consented, and Lorenzo II, son of Piero, was recalled as prince. Cardinal Giovanni, however, kept the reins of power in his own hands. As Leo X he sent thither Cardinal Giulio de' Medici (the natural son of Giuliano), afterwards Clement VII. The family had now reached the acme of its power and prestige. The sack of Rome (1527) and the misfortunes of Clement VII caused a third exile of the Medici. Ippolito andAlessandro, cousins of the pope, were driven out.

     

     

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02616a.htm

    History of the ancient Unitas Fratrum (1457-1722)

    The Bohemian Brethren are a link in a chain of sects beginning with Wyclif (1324-84) and coming down to the present day. The ideas of the Englishman found favour with Hus, and Bohemia proved a better soil for their growth than EnglandBoth Wyclif and Hus were moved by a sincere desire to reform the Church of their times; both failed and, without intending it, became the fathers of new heretical bodies — the Lollards and the Hussites. The former were persecuted out of existence in England by Catholic rulers;the latter prospered in Bohemia, thanks to royal and national support.The burning of John Hus at the stake for his stubborn adherence to the condemned doctrines of Wyclif (at Constance, 6 July, 1415) was considered an insult to the faith of the Bohemian nation, which, since its first conversion to Christianity, had never swerved from the truth. The University of Prague came boldly forward to vindicate the man and his doctrines; the party which hitherto had worked at reforming the Church from within now rejected the Church's authority and became the Hussite sect. Divisions at once arose amongst its members. Some completely set aside the authority of the Church and admitted no other rule than the Bible;others only demanded Communion under both kinds for the laity and free preaching of the Gospel, with some minor reforms. The former, who met for worship at "Mount Tabor", were called Taborites; the latter received the name of Calixtines, i.e., the party of the Chalice. As long as they had a common enemy to fight they fought together under the leadership of that extraordinary man, John Trocznowski, known as Zizka (the one-eyed), and for fully fifteen years proved more than a match for the imperial armies and papal crusaders sent to crush them. Peace was at length obtained, not by force of arms, but by skilful negotiations which resulted in the "Compactata of Basle" (30 November, 1433). The compact was chiefly due to the concessions made by the Calixtine party; it found little or no favour with the Taborites. The discontent led to a feud which terminated at the Battle of Lippau (30 May, 1434) with the death of Procopius, the Taborite leader, and the almost total extinction of this party. The small remnant, too insignificant to play a role in politics, withdrew into private life, devoting all their energies to religion. In 1457 one section formed itself into a separate body under the name of the "Brethren's Union" (Unitas Fratrum), which is now generally spoken of as the Bohemian Brethren. Their contemporaries coined for them several opprobrious designations, such as Jamnici (cave-dwellers) and Pivnicnici (beerhouse men), Bunzlau Brethren, Picards (corrupted toPickarts), etc.

     

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07584b.htm 

    Hus meanwhile openly defended Wyclif, and this position he maintained especially against John Stokes, a licentiate of Cambridge, who had come to Prague and declared that in England Wyclif was regarded as a heretic. With no less vehemence Hus attacked the Bulls (9 September and 2 December 1411) in which John XXIII proclaimed indulgences to all who would supply funds for the crusade against Ladislaus of Naples. Both Hus and Jerome of Prague aroused the university and the populace against the papal commission which had been sent to announce the indulgences, and its members in consequence were treated with every sort of indignity. The report of these doings led the Roman authorities to take more vigorous action. Not only was the former excommunication against Hus reiterated, but his residence was placed under interdict. Finally the pope ordered Hus to be imprisoned and the Bethlehem chapel destroyed. The order was not obeyed, but Hus towards the end of 1412 left Prague and took refuge at Austi in the south. Here he wrote his principal work, "De ecclesiâ". As the king took no steps to carry out the papal edict, Hus was back again at Prague by the end of April, 1414, and posted on the walls of the Bethlehem Chapel his treatise "De sex erroribus". Out of this and the "De ecclesiâ" Gerson extracted a number of propositions which he submitted to Archbishop Konrad von Vechta (formerly Bishop of Olmütz) with a warning against their heretical character. In November following the Council of Constance assembled, and Hus, urged by King Sigismund, decided to appear before that body and give an account of his doctrineAt Constance he was tried, condemned, and burnt at the stake, 6 July, 1415. The same fate befell Jerome of Prague 30 May, 1416...For details see COUNCIL OF CONSTANCE.)

     

     

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04288a.htm 

    In September, 1415, he abjured the forty-five propositions of Wyclif and the thirty of Hus, but did not regain his freedom, as his sincerity was suspected, and new charges were made against him. Finally, he was brought before the council, 23 May, 1416, one year after his arrest. This time he solemnly withdrew his abjuration as a sinful act and compelled by fear, and proclaimed Hus a holy and upright man. He was forthwith condemned as a heretic in the twenty-first session (30 May, 1416) and perished at the stake with no less courage than Hus. The humanist Poggio was an eyewitness of his death, and his letter to Leonardo of Arezzo, describing the scene, may be seen in Hefele, "Conciliengesch.", VII, 280 sqq. The death of both Hus and Jerome of Prague affected strongly other humanists of the time; Æneas Sylvius (later Pius II) said that they went to their deaths as men invited to a banquet. The immediate consequences were grave enough, i.e. the long Utraquist wars. For an equitable criticism of the defects in the trials of both Hus and Jerome see Baudrillart in "Dict. de théol. cath.", II, 1216-17. (See also HUSSITES.)

    Jean Petit (Johannes Parvus) and Johann von Folkenberg

      May 7, 2018 8:00 AM MDT
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  • 492
    Neither do JW's shun their family or friends if these family members or friends leave the congregation. 
    Some of the changes the Watchtower makes are abnormal, but this change is for the best. Just imagine JWs from the past who have been separated from their families due to their acts of shunning.

    What do JW's teach that is false?
    How about all the false prophecies make by the Watchtower in its history. Want a list?


      April 27, 2018 3:52 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    Never have shunned anyone just for leaving the congregation. How they left may be another story, apostasy, unrepentant immorality, or something else maybe but just for leaving like apostates and their parrots like to say, nope, didn't happen.

    So you can't come up with anything that JW's teach that is false? Only some misconceptions in the past, that's good.

    You seem to have missed this:
    Other than for reading or translating the Bible, marrying a Protestant or scientific discoveries, who else if any does the Catholic Church excommunicate?

    (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”


    The Watchtower has not made any prophecies, only tried to interpret prophecies that already existed in the Bible. Some of those have been misunderstood in the past just like some of God's people in the Bible sometimes misunderstood things. That is way different than all of the blood shed and falsehood your Church has under its belt.
      April 27, 2018 7:11 AM MDT
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  • 492
    Only some misconceptions in the past,
    Misconception is a delusion,  a failure, a screw up, an untruth, disbelief. It is false. Of course it's from the past. I can't predict the future, but the Watchtower tried to and failed miserably. 

    ... who else if any does the Catholic Church excommunicate?
    Don't know, don't care. Look it up in your Catholic Encyclopedia.
      April 27, 2018 3:37 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Your misconception about JW's shunning people for just leaving is a delusion,  a failure, a screw up, an untruth, disbelief. It is false. You are overly concerned with that. You are not concerned with innocent people getting arrested for life for scientific discoveries or for being burned at the stake for teaching and/or translating the Bible by the Catholic Church.
      April 27, 2018 4:44 PM MDT
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  • 492
    Something you'll just have to get over.
    Matthew 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

    JWs don't shun easily anymore.
    The light must have got brighter, I guess. This is new.

    I found a list of 34 offences the Watchtower has created for which a Jehovah's Witness can be disfellowshipped or disassociated. https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/disfellowship-shunning.php#reasons

    How many offences does the Catholic Church have to disfellowship or disassociate a member?
      April 27, 2018 6:41 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Not going to your link as I am sure it is full of half truths just like all of your post. It's disturbing that you are bothered by the scriptures about removing unrepentant wrongdoers and those teaching apostasy from the Congregation but you have no problem with house arrest for life and burning at the stake and other unscriptural heinous acts of your Church. Hitler and his henchmen were good Catholics but Galileo was arrested and numerous individuals were burned at the stake for teaching and/or translating the Bible. Talk about a warped conscience. 

    (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

    (2 John 9, 10) Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.
    (1 Timothy 1:19, 20) holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside, resulting in the shipwreck of their faith. 20 Hy·me·naeʹus and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.
    (3 John 9, 10) I wrote something to the congregation, but Di·otʹre·phes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not accept anything from us with respect. 10 That is why if I come, I will call attention to the works he is doing in spreading malicious talk about us. Not being content with this, he refuses to welcome the brothers with respect; and those who want to welcome them, he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation.
    (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
    (Titus 3:10, 11) As for a man who promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition, 11 knowing that such a man has deviated from the way and is sinning and is self-condemned.
    (Revelation 21:8) But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and the sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”
    (1 Timothy 5:19) Do not accept an accusation against an older man except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
    (1 Timothy 5:20) Reprove before all onlookers those who practice sin, as a warning to the rest.
    (2 Thessalonians 3:6) Now we are giving you instructions, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother who is walking disorderly and not according to the tradition that you received from us.
    (2 Thessalonians 3:11) For we hear that some are walking disorderly among you, not working at all, but meddling with what does not concern them.
    (2 Thessalonians 3:13-15) For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good. 14 But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed. 15 And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

      April 27, 2018 7:27 PM MDT
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  • 492
    Show me the half truths found a list of 34 offences the Watchtower has created for which a Jehovah's Witness can be disfellowshipped or disassociated in the link and show me more than 34, less than 34, more than 1000 or less than 1000 offences, the Catholic Church has to disfellowship or disassociate a member?. Easy. No scriptures needed, having no value to the issue, just facts. 
      April 28, 2018 12:45 PM MDT
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