Do liberals hate President Trump more than they love America?

Except, of course, for the 43% of college graduates who voted for him. Wow, another in an endless succession of Tom J's wrong opinions!

Bingo and THAT makes sense. Two bad candidates, they picked the showman. That and the fact that many rusted-on Democrat voters didn't bother to vote at all - either due to dislike of their candidate or pure apathy. The opinion polls had Mrs Clinton at unbackable odds, so why bother when she's a sure thing and we don't like her? This post was edited by Slartibartfast at September 29, 2018 7:37 PM MDT

So, you are referring to Putin?

For the billionaires.

“America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within.” - Unknown

Let us never forget that government is ourselves and not an alien power over us. The ultimate rulers of our democracy are not a President and senators and congressmen and government officials, but the voters of this country. -Franklin D. Roosevelt

This post was edited by Beans/SilentGeneration at September 26, 2018 8:44 PM MDT

Very true.  Our elected officials do not give us power, nor do they "lead" us.  They ARE us. 

While I have very little interest if any in politics and do not find it entertaining in the least I have felt called to sometimes enter the fray on this site if only for the sake or fairness.  As you know I do not think hate is appropriate on a site such as this and I guess I would consider the wholesale labeling of someone we do not care for or agree with as "insane", "criminal", "racist", "misogynist" as unfair in that they only excoriate and condemn without respecting the person as an autonomous individual.  Whatever the correct "legal" ramifications of such name-calling are on a site like this.  Seems to me we could say OK I think someone is "racist" because of A, B, and C, or "criminal" because of this or that but such wholesale dismissal devalues and so discredits an individual that they stand structurally condemned. 

I have known and worked with men like our current president and they are certainly not "insane", but rather they just hold certain views on how to live their lives and deal with opposition and get support.  Neither are they anything extraordinary, except in the sense that we are all extraordinary.  Donald Trump had chosen to live his life a certain way and does it and enjoys it.  Very simply.  I have explained in many of my comments on answers on here just how I would guess he works but not sure if anyone has read my comments. Not that I would try to pass myself off as any great authority on anything but I have lived for a number of years and experienced many things and known many people, some of them like Mr. Trump.

Many of us grew up in a different time and we were taught to be proud of the heritage of the best of our country's institutions. Part of the whole "Make America Great Again" appeal besides just a meaningless slogan is that it harks back to the time when most of us believed America WAS great. We believed that we - each one of us - had the choice to make of our lives what we would choose to make of them.  Providing of course we were willing to work hard and make sacrifices so we could fulfill our dreams.  It is this more than anything that President Trump stands for at least for us. The value of the individual in determining the course of his or her life.  Now that can take in any number of courses which is the very genius of it. And many of us were very disheartened to see more and more people entering politics who were only able to see and advocate a single way of life for all - that we are all to do a certain thing, believe a certain thing, have all the same things, belong to the same clubs.  You MUST believe this and think this because it is the only way.  Which killed the whole notion of individuality and the notion that God loves all of us.  If we want to be well, happy, and productive then we can be.  If we want to sit around and drink and take drugs that becomes out choice. We an choose every day but we must put the effort into it.  And no one can choose for us unless we let them. 

I cannot in good conscience view health as a matter of health insurance and numbers of people insured.  Those are businesses with whom we make a business agreement which involve, as in any agreement, a certain amount of risk. We may choose, if we so wish, to view only poor people and ignore healthy and happy and productive people.  Which doesn't mean they don't exist.  I was brought up to believe that we were meant to help those less fortunate than ourselves.  Which I have always done .  I believe we can't abrogate that obligation by transferring it to a government which cannot have a conscience or feel simply because it is not a person.  We can only help one another, we cannot alleviate poverty or suffering or despair or disbelief or guarantee any one person that they will be able to "achieve their dreams".  All those things can be choices as well and they exist on their own or they can be just the inability or refusal to choose for oneself. 

Ironic that Trump does not personally embody many of the values he has pledged to hold dear!  But neither is anyone of us perfect though perhaps some of us like to think so.  We all have our own "row to hoe" and I was brought with "live and let live". My father, and we were Kennedy type Democrats, always used to say to me that if we want something in life we have two choices - we can either work for it and earn it or take it from someone else.  Strange for many years I never thought of that and was content to some extent just sailing around at low-paying jobs and letting men take care of me.  Until I realized I would have to make my own way, which I was in my late 20s by then.  I became successful, as did my husband who grew up in a traditional conservative (and political) household. Together we have than each of us ever dreamed. Which is why we have been able to take some of it to help and encourage others. 

However I have noticed that as far as your cost for health care insurance I notice that we are charged more for the same services or plans and would be for the same procedures than people who live at a lower income level.  Which means that we are penalized for working hard and becoming successful.  Or perhaps because our parents were successful. Which we grew up believing this country was in part about.  Work hard and realize your dreams.  So now it seems an artificially tiered society has been created.  Now THAT I do consider "insane". 

This post was edited by officegirl at September 26, 2018 1:38 PM MDT

I didn't realize I needed to back up my claims because, from what I've seen, most people don't argue whether those terms are apporpriate for Trump, but here you go...

Insane: Insane refers to being mentally ill. Nobody in a professional sense with background to diagnose disagrees whether he's mentally ill, only what his official diagnosis is and whether people who are not treating him should diagnose him. There are lots of examples of mental health professionals discussing his issues. Here's one: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/07/31/professionals-scrutinize-trumps-mental-health-talker/871193002/ 

A criminal: Trump has repeatedly argued that collusion is not a crime, pointed out that he has the right to pardon himself, and has paid off or threatened people into silence. And, while we're still waiting on the dust to settle regarding a number of his affairs, here's a list of some of the criminal acts he's committed over the years: https://www.citypaper.com/blogs/the-news-hole/bcpnews-five-times-law-enforcers-could-have-arrested-donald-trump-but-didn-t-20170306-story.html 

A racist: Failure to call out the head of the KKK for endorsing him, well, perhaps that's merely in poor form rather than racist. And, sure, maybe you can convince yourself that he was totally unaware that his real estate company tried to keep black people from living in his apartments or that he had no idea his black casino employees were treated differently than the white ones. Anyway, here's a list of racist things he's said: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html 

A misogynist: He consistently judges women based upon appearance, has remarked that ability doesn't matter, so long as the woman is a "beautiful piece of ass," and, of course, the comment about how he can get away with groping women because he's apparently oh-so-awesome. Here's some more: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/donald-trump-sexism-tracker-every-offensive-comment-in-one-place/ 

Had multiple bankruptcies: Speaks for itself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2016/live-updates/general-election/real-time-fact-checking-and-analysis-of-the-first-presidential-debate/fact-check-has-trump-declared-bankruptcy-four-or-six-times/?utm_term=.8de1219cdccb 

Didn't understand the fundamentals of economics: Getting Mexico to pay for the wall was arguably the biggest blunder... well, that was until the trade wars. He's also talked about racking up more debt and printing money to cover it. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-trade-economists-doesnt-get/ 

And, I only grabbed one link for each statement.

"I would consider the wholesale labeling of someone we do not care for or agree with as "insane", "criminal", "racist", "misogynist" as unfair in that they only excoriate and condemn without respecting the person as an autonomous individual." 

Umm... please tell me you're joking. Please. Seriously. I should respect him as an autonomous individual and allow him the space to behave in a morally reprehensible way? As the leader of our nation? He should be given a free pass as a criminal, racist, and misogynist because he's autonomous? Oh. My. Word. 

You see subsidizing healthcare for the poor as a penalty against you? Good grief. Exploring how the divide between the nation's wealthiest and the nation's poorest is a whole different discussion, but suffice it to say, opportunity doesn't knock on the doors of the impoverished. Even schooling is different in wealthy neighborhoods versus poor neighborhoods. Access to healthy foods is limited in poor neighborhoods. The list goes on. Simply working hard doesn't help anyone realize their dreams anymore. There has to be opportunity, and sadly, opportunity is reserved for an elite few. If you don't think all people deserve access to medical care, healthy food, and a quality education (things that wold help them climb out of poverty), or that somehow affording this to our poorest citizens is somehow a slam against you, I don't know what to tell you. We obviously have very different views on social responsibility. 

Nothing but 'facts' posted here...

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion draws all things else to support and agree with it. And though there be a greater number and weight of instances to be found on the other side, yet these it either neglects and despises, or else-by some distinction sets aside and rejects, in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination the authority of its former conclusion may remain inviolate - Francis Bacon

https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/Column-Donald-Trump-gets-his-sanity-grades_164607756

I have heard him say the oppose about women in regards to "abilty vs nice piece of ***"....He stated that beauty is very important but there has to be more than that because you have to have something to do for the other 23hrs of the day. So intelligence, ability, things in common are also very important.

 

Hi my2cents!  Thank you - your comment covers so many things that I had no idea about and because I have little knowledge or interest in the subject matter.  As you may notice in my answer to this same comment I am far too much floundering around in things I know little about and was up until midnight last night trying to play catch-up.

It was not my intention to cause any dissension on here but simply to state my beliefs in this country as I received them and as they have been enhanced by my religious rebirth and express mu opposition to the use of hate as an effective social tool. You have much greater knowledge of these things and responded more appropriately than I could have ever.  I have leaned as much from your comment as I did frantically trying to search out information in two hours last night. 

I think most people in general think well of attractive people- a good appearance opens doors no question. Those of us who are let's say less attractive must cultivate other aspects of ourselves to get over. 

I guess I have always been opposed to "the wall" as impractical. Also I question the wisdom of some of the  the so-called "tariff wars" but no question this country has allowed itself to occupy  subsidiary position in such matters it should not have had to occupy.  And I can see that President Trump would be attracted to such a challenge. 

Everything else I have written about in one comment or another. 

I really must stop doing this as I know I am not very good at it.  But I get to feeling I must express what to me, as I know they are to many other people, are the most important and vital issues. About personhood, individuality, equality. 

Your comment was very informative. It had some info I had not known. Much respect for you and your research. Don't stop, 
We may turn you into a news junkie yet....lol. 

Hiya M2C,

Insane: The mental fitness test looked for cognitive decline only. It might have helped uncover if he was in the early stages of dementia brought on by age or Alzheimer's. It wasn't a test that would have uncovered any potential issues beyond that- purely geared toward base comprehension and memory. You can learn more about what that test covered here: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/16/measure-your-mental-fitness-compared-to-president-trump-test-results.html 


Criminal: Eh, semantics. The way you're wording it, it sounds like, if a murderer is never deemed guilty by a court, he's not a murderer. Does the court action determine guilt? Is the deceased any less dead because someone got away with it? Yeah, you could make a list about most politicians, even Clinton, but this isn't about her, and pointing out that other people engage in criminal activities is, I would hope, not your best argument for Trump's actions. The guy gets out of things by paying people off or scaring them into submission. That was the whole point of the link I included. The fact that he gets preferential treatment is astounding. 

Racist: I gave a couple examples. We can continue if we must. He referred to Mexicans as criminals and racists. He called African countries "sh*thole countries" and deemed their people unworthy of support. The list here is endless. 

Misogynist: It sounds like your argument here is that, "yes, he is a misogynist, but his companies don't have an income disparity and he hires/ promotes women, so it's ok." ... Ummm... no. Still not ok. 

Bankruptcies: Yup, you can file bankruptcy to save yourself or your business, but doing so four times suggests you still haven't learned from it. That suggests a pattern of behavior; bad fiscal management followed by a bail out. Repeatedly. What happens when the same thing is done at a country-wide level? 

Economics: The tariff wars are working? For whom? How is it working for our farmers, who now need to be bailed out due to decreased demand? It could take months to years to see the extent of the damage being caused. This is really, really, basic economics. Look at aluminum. Tariff goes up by 25% in an effort to support US aluminum companies. Great. Our aluminum companies can now charge more because the market will allow it. That means literally anything made with aluminum will go up in price. Again, good for the aluminum industry here, but what of the businesses which rely on aluminum? They must react. They either have to raise prices or cut jobs. And, the businesses impacted by aluminum have a far greater reach than the aluminum industry itself in terms of workers and contributions to the economy. So, a net loss of jobs is imminent, and prices to the consumer go up. Who is that better for? Who is winning? Yeah, Trump's pissing contest is getting countries to play ball, but they're also retaliating and filing grievances against us. That's not a win. That's scary. He's ticking off the whole world. As for the wall... the value of the wall was not the question. We're discussing economics and his lack of comprehension of them. 

My statements are accurate. I'm sure if you wanted to go back and forth, we could debate the merits of each claim more. From what I've seen, however, it's a moot point. Most of what I've said relates to his morals and ethics, which is irrelevant to most of the people who support him, from what I've seen. You, and many others, support his policies, not him as a person. Perhaps, over time, we will be able to look at some of these policies he's enacting and determine whether they really were beneficial or not rather than rely on theory. The reality is, about 80% of economists think he's making some very poor choices right now. And, maybe it's actually the 20% who support the tariff wars who are right. Realistically, we're all just looking at theories. What we believe will happen based on models. When we've got someone making decisions that are not consistent with successful outcomes, and who further talks about printing more money to solve economic woes, and making countries pay for things with trade deficits... He's missing bits. Even if we remove the trade wars from my statement, he's still missing bits. And, that's not to say I don't stand by that statement- that I think the tariffs are a mistake, just that I believe my argument about his lack of comprehension is strong enough to stand without even bringing that component into it.

Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.

 

When it comes to Trump's mental health, I was only giving the examples provided by mental health professionals. I personally think he has borderline personality disorder or similar, and that was in the mix as well. It appears BDP is correlated with having a smaller amygdala. The amygdala is responsible for all kinds of things, namely memory and the fight or flight response. People with BPD are quicker to react emotionally- they get angrier faster, tend to be more paranoid, tend to see things in black and white, and so forth. The anger-type responses... those are things we've all seen. That's why he was on TV. The audience ate that up. And, while it makes for "good" TV, it doesn't make him stable. And, there is no cure for BPD. They don't even usually medicate for it because meds don't usually help. People who live with BPD have to take ownership for it and learn to catch themselves having reactions and learn how to stop the physiological response. Arguably, I should not have used "insane." I think, in hindsight, that's disrespectful to people with the diagnosis of BPD. But, he's not stable. His moods and reactions are not normal. Nobody knows what he's going to do at any given moment, who he's going to call names, who he's going to say something sexually demeaning to, etc.. If we can't trust him to have consistent honorable actions, he shouldn't have the kind of power he has.

As far as race issues go... I am arguably not the best person to explain this because I've only started "getting" the depth of the issues in the last year or so, and I still don't understand all the mechanisms behind the biases we see. But, I will kind of touch on a few areas that impact your stats. First, coloration does not equal causation. In other words, just because two things are linked, it doesn't mean one causes the other. One example: studies show people who eat cereal for breakfast have healthier weights. Does that mean if I have a big bowl of Fruit Loops every morning, I will become thin? No. We know something else is going on there... maybe the cereal eaters simply eat less over the course of a day because they're balancing their calories or maybe the people who make breakfast a priority engage in other healthy habits. We actually don't know. We just know the cereal eaters are thinner. Likewise, we know there are more minorities behind bars than white people. Does that mean they're more likely to be criminals? Again, no, it does not. We only know they're convicted more. And, there's your distinction. See, we can look at someone like Trump with his thousands of lawsuits and the people he's paid off to silence. And, nobody is arguing that those things are inaccurate. Trump has the resources to make his legal problems go away. Can you hypothesize what might happen if a poor minority from Detroit faced those same charges? We all know what would happen. That person would be behind bars. He wouldn't have the resources to fight the charges. We see this in all sorts of situations. One big one circulating the net is a story of two moms. One is a middle-class white woman who abandoned her kid to get drunk/ high alongside a poor black woman who left her child in a car while she went into a job interview. The black woman lost her child and got jail time. The white woman got probation. When I initially saw that story, I chalked it up to different judges with different styles, not a racial bias. But, then I looked at the overall stats. There's a national pattern of this. 

Some people  are criminals. To suggest one race or nationality is more likely to be criminals is wrong. We do not have the evidence to conclude that. We only know the conviction rates, and frankly, the more I learn about racial disparity and bias, the more upset and the sadder I get. For Trump to talk like that (even though he threw in a half-hearted disclaimer at the end), is irresponsible/ ignorant at best and manipulative/ racist at worst. He's creating fear and hate. He's telling the nation that minorities are criminals. There's a reason why the KKK loves him. He's spreading their message. 

As far as the rapes occurring as people slip into the US... Again, that's misleading. Who is doing the raping? It's not the migrants. It's the coyotes or the guides. The ones who move back and forth transporting people, not the people moving here. So, Trump says Mexico is sending us their worst. Are these women and children their worst? Again, it's not the rapists who stay, but the victims. It's so bad that women take birth control before trying to cross the border, fully knowing there's a good chance their guide will either pressure them into sex as payment or forcibly rape them if they decline. And Trump uses this as an excuse to badmouth Mexico, as if our own criminals don't do the same things, as if the victims trying to come here are rapists. It's shameful. 

On the tariffs, I've already said he's gotten other nations to play ball. That doesn't make it a solid plan. We'll only know whether he did damage or good months and years from now. 

Do you remember what happened right before the recession? Things looked really good. Then, people lost their homes and retirement savings nearly overnight. Some people think this climb is sustainable, but it's not. Most economists agree it's not. Most expect the bottom to fall out. I know I probably sound like chicken little, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but the experts aren't backing Trump on this one, and I can see why. I kind of addressed this in my comment to Stu. Unemployment hasn't gone down, the numbers just got played with. Tax cuts spurred economic growth, but they cut the country's revenue, growing our deficit. When it's time to pay the piper on that one, it's going to hurt. A lot. 

From what I read on BPO, it still involves severe depression mood swings....We do not see that in President Trump. He is a rich man who has been rich for a long time. He is used to being able to say what he feela at the time he feels to whomever he feels like saying it towards. He was actually very calm on the set of Apprentice....so no he being unpredictable etc was not part of the show. The contestants were unpredictable and some were mean and nasty which is what made for a good TV show. I just don't see a disorder there. I believe any one of us being evaluated by a good psychologist could be found to have issues. Just as a brand new car being inspected by a good auto inspector can find something to fail the cars inspection over. 

No one is saying one race is more likely to be a criminal than another. There are good and bad people of every race, creed, color and gender. If we can not go by convictions in a court of law....we can never have a chamce at an accurate guess. We already cannot count arrests and conviction at local and state because of improper data keeping and sanctuary cities. The only thing close we have to an apples to apples comparison is Federal convictions. All of the Mexicans I have encountered are very good people. And they have told me don't go to the border....it is not safe. But in America it is safe because Amercia does not put up with that crap. 
 Yes it is the human smugglers doing the raping of the women. There are also men who come across the border some of them could be responsible for some of the rapes as well. I was simply explaining what and why Trump said what he said and reminding people of the phrase " some are good people".  But in just plain and simple terms if they seek across the border....they are a criminal. And they are not all Mexicans crossing the border either. The illegals I have known are Europeans. 

Tarriffs are working....did you hear about the replacement of NAFTA....it was just signed. The USMCA? I just heard about it on the news. 

Were things great just before the housing bubble burst? Not for me. And not according to others as well. It actually started to weaken 2006....two years before the bubble burst. 


https://www-m.cnn.com/2012/07/23/opinion/salam-economy-woe/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

Borderline Personality Disorder blurb taken from Google:
People may experience:
Behavioral: antisocial behavior, compulsive behavior, hostility, impulsivity, irritability, risk taking behaviors, self-destructive behavior, self-harm, social isolation, or lack of restraint
Mood: anger, anxiety, general discontent, guilt, loneliness, mood swings, or sadness
Psychological: depression, distorted self-image, grandiosity, or narcissism

Dear JA,  Your comment took me by surprise and I found it upsetting in more ways that one.  Please understand I am really out of my element here.  Considering that I guess I am expected to site articles from entertainment media to support anything I write which I am just unable to do since I only on occasion read them.  Also links provided I have learned the hard way not to click on as the might contain viruses which could infect the equipment here at work as well as mine at home.  Nonetheless I talked about this with my husband who thinks I should make some kind of an answer so I sat up last night going into at least some of the charges you have cited.

As far as criminal behavior I cannot find that he is at all even a convicted criminal.  He has lost 38 lawsuits which all as far as I can determine involved fines which were nothing at all compared to the many billions he must have paid out to settle hundreds of lawsuits out of court. Really there is so much litigation there I could not understand much of it if I spent the rest of my life studying it.  According to my older brother John most of that is pretty much going to be expected in the course of playing as large a high-profile financial game as he has.  Which I would have expected.  Suits and countersuits, settlements, further suits and counter suits and suddenly everything is forgotten and the parties move on to something else. Please understand I don't know much about how such games are played but I know they are. The most glaring instances that stand out to me are those involving the so-called Trump University. Where people paid all kinds of money to "study" business techniques with him.  Which of course many people did willingly and then later complained they did not get their money's worth.  So not really "criminal" but I notice at least some of the complainants received settlements.  OK I could agree as far as that may have been a cheap and easy way to cash in on his reputation but certainly no one was compelled to fall for it.  And from what I can ascertain there was a curriculum and classes. Whether it was worth what they paid I doubt but then as they used to say "there is a sucker born every minute". And he has been very forthcoming in laying out many of his techniques, some of them extremely hard, in his books for public consumption. The case where he received part of his inheritance from his father by having him buy into one of his ventures I would say from what I can tell was illegal as it violated particular codes - that is by the latter of the law - however I can't really see that as any big deal but more a creative way of handling a common situation.  But yes I think the state was technically defrauded.  the Briarcliff Manor seems to me to have involved wrongdoing but it was settled. 

The  filings for Chapter 11 involving four of his enterprises are pretty much par for the course in real estate and development. That is how the game is played to reduce debt. And of course often results in sale of the property to meet the debt which may still not.  All legal but from the point of view that people are not repaid all that they are owed I think morally reprehensible However in the last 20 years this has become more and more common in all levels of society so that anyone who owes any amount and can't pay it files with companies specially set up for that purpose to negotiate a reduction of the debt. Which I cannot justify morally but it has become common practice for poor people as well.

Without knowing the facts I would guess that he did partner with known underworld crime figures in some of his dealings but please understand in many areas  you have to pay them off or give them a piece of the action to get anything done. This is also true of labor unions in many areas including eastern MA. 

The rigging of the Miss America Pageant I don't doubt but from what I have read he was not responsible for that but just knew that it was going on.  I think if the history of such 'competitions" is studied it would be found that again that is not uncommon but I really don't know. 

But even given the supposed breaches that I agree with I would not want to publicly label him, or anyone else, anyone a "criminal" dismissively.  Because he is not even a convicted one. We can say OK I agree he probably did this or that but it all falls within the realm of supposition.  And even if he were a criminal he is entitled by law to due process.  Now I don't play the kind of big game that he has and I would not even know how to go about it but even I have been guilty of criminal wrongdoing.  Years ago when I was living on the streets I would occasionally steal food.  More recently when I moonlighted as an escort I lied for a while about my age.  Now of course these may be thought of as nothing at all but still demonstrates that even I am not above criminal behavior. Parking illegally, circumventing regulations I have heard of. If investigated what would they "dig up" about me?  Someone like Trump plays a big game which carries with it a lot of power. If they can excoriate him and bring him down think what they can do to mere  to ordinary people like you and I.  Which is scary to me/ Not that I have anything to hid and I think I have been pretty forthcoming about what I consider my own wrongdoing. 

The "collusion" issue seems to me to be entirely a partisan one .  I have read something about this and I cannot take it at all seriously.  As Sharon, writing on this site once observed, "you have to believe he was guilty".  So it has become sort of an article of faith. Well I cannot see it in those terms .    And certainly the notion that  Russian agents persuaded or paid people to vote for Trump just seems outrageous!  To the point of being laughable. Russians care nothing for Donald Trump, but rather only seek to embarrass this country no matter who is or was president. 

In the 1973 Fair Housing violation case it was never found that he ordered that that  black people be excluded however he did admit to not wanting his managers to rent to people on welfare.  Not can I find that he ever made any statements that people of color are inferior.  The casino case where he pulled the black employees from a particular gaming table he apparently did to temporarily accommodate a particular organized crime gambler who was known fly into "racist rages" when drunk and losing. In fact I note that he has employed many black people at his various properties. 

As far as the KKK wouldn't that be the same as if I refused to accept a compliment from anyone on your site unless I did a background check on their beliefs and what organizations they were members of?  As far as I know Klan members are allowed to vote and are human beings and if you know about the South such organizations were often more for fraternal purposes than to spread hate.  A way for people to get together and enjoy fellowship like the Elks or the IOOF. I am disturbed by the notion that if someone belongs to a questionable organization then we much dismiss them personally as well. 

I have never ben called a "beautiful piece of ass" at least within my hearing.  Perhaps because I never had all that much in that department.  But I know how men talk and I have accepted similar compliments because I like being thought of as attractive.  Whatever else they may think of me otherwise.  Which of course if they don't know me they don't know much about me except what they notice about my appearance.  As far as the "groping" it seems that came out of a comment he made privately off the record to a group of men and was not groping but about grabbing us in a particular place behind closed doors in an intimate situation.  I have no doubt he would have made comments tp some women of an appreciative nature possibly hoping for a meeting  but that is very common and certainly unless in some way I felt threatened I would not have even given such comments a second thought.  After all men like us for other things than say just our cooking. And you must know the way that men talk about us among themselves which is not always what we might describe as "respectable".  But mostly big talk to inflate their standing among each other .  Similarly we sometimes, in all a spirit of good fun, run down men as a way of bonding. 

I not that at least two of the sources you site are, similar to many papers and journals these days, virulently anti-Trump. OK they can print what they want but considering such bias are we able to trust what we read in them?  Knowing they are being produced to feed the tastes and prejudices of a particular audience. I have seen some of these papers and I would not believe anything I read in them. Which only further makes me wary of any such publications. Or websites. 

I guess you take seriously the "insanity" business.  Because you subscribe to  the rightness of the judgment of "mental health professionals". Which I can not share in and I only have to wonder if they turned their "professionalism" on me what they would conclude about me!   No I would not label him any such thing - he is not any different than any number of men who choose to live their lives similarly - though I would have to admit I find the way he has chosen to live his life often "insane". 

OK enough of that, for now. Maybe forever! But I guess what bothers me most is the notion expressed that it is perfectly acceptable to hate if we don't like someone. .  As long as you hate the right people.  Which to me divides the world unfairly , and selfishly, into people we like or don't like.  And though we may cite statistics or "facts" to justify our hate they do not, to me, in any way excuse it. A few months ago I wrote a brief blog where I set out some of my thinking on this. Hate causes us to rob the objects of our hate of their humanity. And robs us of our own humanity, as we become more and more what we hate .  Though I do not personally approve of much of Donald Trump's in both his public and previous private life I do admire him for some things and I see no reason to be angry with him just because I may not agree with this or that or the other and to absolutely write him off as a human being because of those things.  That is not the way I was brought up nor is it what my religion teaches me. 

I can see that I have once more assumed a bond between us based upon mutual respect and sisterhood that in fact does not exist. I have set forth what is important to me and what I deem to be in the best and most realistic interests of all.  Which you have rejected.  I grew up to believe in a much wider and more grand and perhaps more idealistic notion of "opportunity" than you seem to be able to see.  One that is much more egalitarian than you believe is possible. The only basis for any equality is that God loves all of us even as sinners he hates our sin. Obviously we are not all the same nor should we be but it is in our like humanness that we recognize our similarities and in fact our same ness. By rejecting each other we only try to withdraw from our humanness which can only lead to disaster as far as human relations are concerned.  Whoever gets in lines everyone up and murders them, then the next in line do the same.  Which is something I choose not to accept for only in respecting and working with each other can we gain a full understanding of our essential sameness whether are beliefs differ or not. 

I understand now why certain things I have objected to on this were and are allowed and though I don't agree with them it is yours to do with as you choose to within your legal limits. You have given me chance to express my views which I have done and for which I thank you. 

I'm sorry you were upset by my response. I mean that sincerely. 

I included one link each to back up my claims because you were arguing what I said was inaccurate. I didn't vet my sources. I merely ran a quick Google search for each thing I was saying and typically grabbed the first relevant response. There were plenty of options. It just seems a bit extreme to go through and find repeated examples to demonstrate the same thing. Either you're going to consider the evidence presented or you're not. If I gave you 100 links to back up each thing I said, would it change your stance? I think not. So, ultimately, I'm going to believe what I believe and you'll believe what you choose to. No amount of evidence will sway you, just as your defenses for him and his actions are relatively meaningless to me. I've seen him talk. I understand what his values are. I do not share the same values. Perhaps you can overlook his moral and ethical decisions, mark them off as part of the human condition, and stand beside him because you appreciate some of his traits. More power to you. I can't do that. 

Neither you nor I are running for office. I wouldn't try to become president because I'm not fit for office. I don't have the education, experience, or background to take on such an important role. I don't think Trump does either. I expect more out of the leader of our country. Yes, they're high standards most people cannot reach because we are human and we do make mistakes, but when you take on an elite office, you need to stand heads above the rest. I don't hate anyone. In fact, quite the opposite. I have great compassion for most people and I look for causes of behavior and actions. I look at the situation and circumstances. I try to understand why certain decisions were made. I don't hate Trump. However, I wholeheartedly disagree with him on almost everything. I don't like what he's done and I don't like how he behaves. 

I expect everyone on this site to be respectful to the members here, but that's about where it stops. People can talk about Trump or even Mother Theresa and they're in the clear. What matters is how we're interacting with one another. I do stand by the claims I made about Trump 100%, but at the same time, I'm sorry you found them upsetting. I welcome debate. If you look above and see the comments from M2C, that's what I would consider a healthy debate. I disagree with her, and she with me, but I respect her immensely. I can't count the number of times she has said something insightful that caused me to go look. For example, in the above passage, she talks about Trump learning about the KKK endorsement. That was news to me. It didn't change my view on whether he's a racist or not, but I did unsuccessfully look for the clip, and I will concede there's a chance she was right in that instance. 

And, that's what this boils down to for me. I'm here to learn and exchange ideas. I don't think we can do that if we can't openly discuss what's wrong or even what we feel is wrong. I can separate my thoughts from myself. If someone disagrees with me on something, it doesn't make me a bad person or wrong. It simply means they disagree. And, it's within their rights to do so. It has nothing to do with "hating the right people." People disagree with me all the time. People dislike/ hate candidates I have supported. I would no more admonish them than I would someone for disliking the same traits as I do in a candidate. And, that happens all the time. 

The truth is, I generally avoid political and religious discussions, simply because it's incredibly difficult to have a meaningful discussion. Feelings are easily hurt and minds are rarely open. But, I'm also open to having my opinions challenged. I also don't think we can possibly come together (as people) until we learn what the other side thinks and why, and then find middle ground. Debates like this one are a central part of that. 

Hello JA, M2C and officegirl
I have enjoyed reading this discussion...
Hope you dont mind me jumping in But I have a few thoughts...
Earlier in the discussion it was said that "opportunity doesn't knock on the doors of the impoverished". I am neither rich or a part of the "elite few". I have never had "opportunity" simply "knock on my door", any opportunity I was able to take advantage of were those where I did the knocking...If you just sit back and wait for "opportunity to knock" on your door, you will most likely have to wait an awful long time.
Further, an offering of Insanity was made. I find this to be a bit frightening. What is the measure?, he is found to be narcissistic and boorish?, that there is disagreement with his policies?, we simply do not like him?...under these charges, we would have to declare millions to be mentally unfit. No proof has been offered to the psychosis which renders him unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality or his inability to conduct his daily affairs.  Being that the term "Insanity" is not a clinical condition, but rather a legal one, the fact that no legal action has ever been taken against the President, and as far as I know, no charge has ever been made against him, other than informally on the internet.
It was also suggested that the President is a criminal, even though he has never been prosecuted for a crime. Again, what is the measure?. 
One of the things mentioned was his ignorance of Business causing massive failure. The proof offered was his 4 bankruptcies. Donald Trump, or his corporation has started well over 500 business's. 4 have gone bankrupt, that is that...less than 1 percent. Given that 50 % of all business;s fail within the first five years, I'd say Trumps four bankruptcies are more an example of Business prowess and success. Furthermore, Bankruptcy is a legal process.
I am not going to speak about the Racist, Misogynist and other such claims as I find them ridiculous and driven by desperation to justify such detest.

Hey designer. Come on in. 

I believe I did a fair job of explaining the basis of my remarks already. 

Insane was a reference to being mentally ill. Many have suggested he is narcissistic and narcissistic personality disorder is an incurable mental illness. Others have proposed borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder. Details are in the links I previously provided, but a lot of it comes down to his unpredictable behavior, unsteady temperament, quickness to anger, refusal to admit errors, blaming, and so forth. That's why so many people liked him on reality TV. They never knew what would happen from week to week. Makes for good entertainment for some, but is more than a bit worrisome when that person has power. Millions would be unfit for office based on the same criteria. That's not to say people with bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder can't be productive members of society and live healthy lives, but it's much harder for them and they require constant care and a good care team.

I've also supplied a number of examples of his criminal behaviors. Trump has been sued repeatedly, but he buys the silence of his victims and the charges get dropped. That doesn't mean he didn't do those things, but if you require a guilty verdict from a jury, you're right. It doesn't exist. If you want to argue he is not a criminal because he doesn't have a conviction, then this is purely semantics. I say if you commit criminal acts, you're a criminal. If you require a guilty verdict, so be it. 

As for the bankruptcies, Trump is in a league of his own. Of all the companies worth more than a billion, fewer than 20% have filed bankruptcy, and Trump has done it more than any of them in decades. Statistically, he is not a success. https://money.cnn.com/2015/08/31/news/companies/donald-trump-bankruptcy/index.html 

As far as opportunity goes, kids born into poverty don't have the same advantages, and so they're more likely to stay in poverty their whole lives. They’re more likely to be malnourished, abused, and neglected. Their schools don’t have the same degree of funding, so they learn less and curriculum focuses on the basics, rather than wealthier schools that have rich curriculums including language, arts, humanities, and character building. They’re more likely to be exposed to violence and crime. They’re less likely to graduate. There’s even a huge disparity with small children in impoverished homes- they’re read to less, so they read less. They’re spoken to less, so their vocabulary is weaker.

And, that’s all pretty severe stuff, but it’s important to keep in mind that these kinds of things in childhood literally shape the way your brain works. Malnourishment, trauma, and abuse all lead to lower intelligence and maladjustment.

Furthermore, people don't randomly offer opportunities to people. It's mostly done in-group. People hire from within their social circles, meaning they hire people in their neighborhoods, those who attended the same schools, those who go to the same churches, and so on. If you aren't in a circle with successful people, it limits your job opportunities, your chances at scholarships, and more.

You may have the know-how to see an opportunity and the ability to seize one, and that’s great. But, don’t assume the same opportunities exist for everyone. They don’t.

This post was edited by Just Asking at September 30, 2018 9:09 PM MDT

One of the bankruptcies was a casino. Losing money from owning a casino takes a real talent for mismanagement, those are (usually) a license to print money. Owning a casino is like having a rich uncle.
How the hell do you bankrupt a casino?