Discussion»Statements»Rosie's Corner» The south will rise again! They have a right to keep their statues/memorials/remindings of the NOBLE history of slavery and lynching. RIGHT?
In the 1950's (when I was "Childhood II" age), a "blackface" was considered a legitimate and amusing form of entertainment. Since I learned what was appropriate in the cultural milieu at that time, a "blackface" has pleasant memories associated with it for me.
Of course, I accept that a "blackface" may have negative connotations and trigger anger in many, I wonder if the intent of those who learned that "blackface" was amusing rather than racist may now be interpreted as racist when their intent was anything but that.
As to Southern history, I came to Texas in 1960 from the Northwest, and men, women, and colored distinctions were still quite evident.
Certainly I think that those who think slavery and lynchings are unacceptable are right and the others are wrong, but the statues, memorials, etc. remind people of other qualities---bravery, standing up for what one believes, etc.---that are valuable.
---Just another topic / issue I have no solution for.
When I was a child I viewed things from a different perspective. Eddie Cantor performed in Blackface. There were minstrel shows. African Americans were generally portrayed in movies as comedic relief or stumble bums. I remember the first TV show STARRING an African American actress. It was heralded as a breakthrough! Lincoln was revered for ending slavery but servants were always African American and when they were treated with respect in the movies it was an anomaly. The Civil War was depicted as an unfortunate war because it pitted brother against brother and split families apart. Pro slave folks said slaves were taken care of and felt protected and so they really preferred that way of life because they were so simple and untalented they couldn't make it on their own anyway. That was then. I grew up. I lived through the civil rights movement. The fight for equality. The murders of those who fought for human rights. Billie Holiday sang a song titled STRANGE FRUIT. It was about lynching. African American musicians and artists could star in review in Las Vegas in the major hotels but they couldn't stay there. Somehow those in power did something to change things. To the extent that we already have had ONE African American president who served us for 8 years. Currently there is at least two who have told us they intend to compete for the presidency. Senator Kamala Harris of California. She used to be our Attorney General. She is BRILLIANT. Also Cory Booker who was the mayor of New Jersey I believe. Others may well enter the campaign. We've come a long way baby. We know the Founding Fathers had slaves and were privileged wealthy WHITE men. They didn't know any better. That was then. We learn we grow we change. Celebrating bravery in a fight to retain slaves? I'm not impressed by that at all. It is embararssing and humiliating and disgusting to me. I am of Armenian descent. Genocide at the hands of the Turks are part of my history just as is the holocaust part of the history of the Jewish people. We were hated and eliminated. Well African Americans were hated and lynched. We(Armenians and Jewish people and all people who have endured genocide due to hatred) have something in common with African Americans tom. Thank you for your thoughts. I have shared my thoughts. I guess that makes us even. Happy Sunday! :) Of course there still are RACISTS who hate. We have a gaslighting commander-in-chief who panders to them and is one of them. The more things change the more they stay the same. Underneath it all people love to HATE the "other" and skin color is the simplest way for them to know whom to hate. Racists are not the sharpest knives in the drawer or the brightest lights.
Part of the reason I have no solution (or position) on the issue is that while I am both intelligent and educated, I have no specific training, or knowledge, or personal familiarity with discrimination. (If I ever experienced it or if my parents ever did, I was never aware of it.)
You said, " Celebrating bravery in a fight to retain slaves? I'm not impressed by that at all." Makes sense; but I do not think that bravery is defined by that which it is in reference to---I see it as a quality that exists independent of its context.
Edit: corrected punctuation.
This post was edited by tom jackson at February 4, 2019 2:28 AM MST
I see. You don't have any personal familiarity with it. You do know that every April young Armenian men sometimes riot. Why? Because to this date the Turkish government DENIES there was ever any death marches. Denies that 1.5 million Armenians died on those death marches. You know what is GALLING? Many countries have acknowledged the Armenian Genocide. The United States is NOT AMONG THEM! Why? Because the chickensh** US government doesn't want to offend the Turkish Government. What the Armenians want is ACKNOWLEDGEMENT by the Turkish government of the genocide they instituted just as Germany has acknowledged the holocaust. But apparently acknowledgement of the truth is too much to ask. So it will continue forever after. Sad that. It angers me greatly. Political expedience gets in the way of TRUTH! What a sad thing to know about my country. As a first generation American my parents and grandparents fled to this country to escape the genocide. They became naturalized citizens. This country refuses to acknowledge that a genocide ever happened at the hand of the Turks. Political party matters not. The Dems refuse to acknowledge it just as the Republicans refuse to acknowledge it. My great grandparents and Aunt Anne (who was two years old at the time) died on one of those death marches. Any Armenian can share a similar story with you. So we know what hate is like firsthand. SIGH. Apologies for the intensity of the emotion. I guess it's in my DNA tom. Thank you for your reply and Happy Monday. I will never not know what hatred of my people was like. It is part of the tapestry of Armenian history. :( Sadly.
This post was edited by RosieG at February 4, 2019 11:51 AM MST
Revering symbols and tokens of a terrible time in our history is something many folks still do. Flags and statues are part of it. Those who miss the good old days would like nothing better than to resuscitate them. The gaslighting commander-in-chief has done just that. He has legitimized racism by labeling it NATIONALISM POPULISM ISOLATIONISM but we know what he means and stands for. Make America Great Again is drivel. But to those who long for the good days it is their mantra and very meaningful. Pity us that they have a platform and a voice and wingnut idiot flaky jake who keeps showing us exactly how low we have fallen. SIGH. Thank you for your reply L and Happy Sunday! :)
This post was edited by RosieG at February 3, 2019 7:49 AM MST
Well sweetie I don't think that would work for me .I can't see me wearing a swaztika or having one around in the house to remind me of the evil of the holocaust. But I can see how it could work for some. I'm just not one of them. Thank you for your reply L! So are you a Patriots fan even though you don't live in New England? Is it another east coast/west coast rivalry ?
This post was edited by RosieG at February 3, 2019 8:51 AM MST
No, I don't mean wearing certain clothing - I meant more on the order of statues and museums. We have a Holocaust Museum, The Jewish Museum which houses many beautiful artifacts from European Jewry. There are many beautiful statues of great generals and monuments to the great wars.
I'm not a football fan, so I'm not rooting for either team. Last night after the 11 PM news, CBS ran a half hour show reminiscing about the 50th Anniversary of the Jets Super Bowl win. Joe Namath was on along with three others, who I didn't recognize, and they played many clips of that game. The only reason I watched it was because there was nothing else on and I wanted to watch the program that was on after it. Joe Namath has not aged well.
Oh. Yes. There is also a memorial in Armenia about the Armenian Genocide. It is a memorial to a tragedy than is true of those statues and flags folks in the south like to display. That is a display of PRIDE in their disgusting history. The Holocaust Museum venerates the dead so I think one is appropriate and the other is not. Just my take on it. Thank you for your reply L! I've seen news segments on the Holocaust Museum. I expect you saw the movie Schindler's List. The most heart-wrenching thing in that movie for me was seeing the table of the belongings of all that the people had to leave behind. Cups and plates and shoes and whatever. it broke my heart more than I can tell you. I think we need to have our hearts broken llke that regularly. They said "NEVER AGAIN". Well hate crimes are on the rise since the gaslighter-in-chief took over by a significant percent. All kinds of hate crimes. So "never again" is here probably just waiting in the wings. SIGH. Thank you for your clarifiation L.
I agree with your distinction between the two. Sometimes I think that although many decades have passed, the South will never get over losing the Civil War.
Yes, anti-Semitic crimes have increased significantly as have other hate crimes. People may have always felt bigotry and racism in their hearts, but this president has seemingly made it acceptable to voice it and the next step after voicing these feelings is acting upon them. We must always be vigilant and learn from the lessons of the past.
You're right, I am wrong to group you all together, but you must admit that there is still a group that thinks the old way. I suppose in some fashion, we are all like that - it's what some consider to be the "good old days." My apologies.
Wrong again. If you are referring to the Klan, they are a very small majority here with the biggest members being stationed in the northern states. If you are referring to regular people, you have a very bad misconception of Southern people. Have you ever been to the South? If you had then you would know it's more the Northern people that keep referring to the Civil war than it is us. We moved past it a LONG time ago. We do not dwell on the past. We do not hold grudges over the way things went. We are educated people (even have inside plumbing now-a-days) who live our lives looking to the future, not lost in the past.
I have tried for many years to talk sense to your hate, to explain a few things to you. And here I go again. Why? You have not learned from all our efforts. Those things do not for those who cherish them commemorate lynchings and slavery but rather honor and bravery on the battlefield and of a noble way of life for them which is long gone. Would you take away from them. or from anyone, what gives them hope and makes them feel better about themselves? Would you have them all rent their clothing and carry on in sackcloth and ashes because of whatever some of their ancestors did or believe. Would you have them all commit suicide? Does whatever your system is allow for any differences of thought and action or must everyone always adhere at all times to whatever the current "party line" is? Will you tell them what to do and how to behave? Do they have no freedom to make their own choices and follow their own consciences?
I will grant you that statues of Civil War generals commemorate honor and bravery on the battlefield. Confederate flags, men covered in pointy hats and white sheets commemorate no such thing. They are cherished by those who think slavery and lynchings are appropriate ways to deny persons of color the same rights as everyone else. One cannot control being born a particular color. Where is the nobility in hanging a man merely for being black? Where is the nobility in preventing a person from being treated as a human being by relegating him to be a slave?
I would reiterate that the monuments you want to take away from people are not monuments to hangings or to slavery. They were and are monuments to heroism and self-determination. With one stroke of the pen would you condemn most of the human race?
Recoiling in horror from the mere idea of slavery or trying to pretend it never existed is denying ourselves. Slavery was and in some places still is a normal and natural part of civilization. Someone is no longer able to support themselves so they sell themselves into service and work for someone else who can afford to keep them. As old as the hills. And if you look at history subject and conquered peoples were put into slavery often as a matter of course and had nothing at all to do with race. Had to do with power.
Now you may know of people who do believe "slavery and lynchings are appropriate ways to deny persons of color the same rights as everyone else". I don't know of anybody who believes that. And a whole side of my family were historic southerners some of whom owned slaves and some of whom were slaves. I do know of people who want to feel good about themselves and in order to do that bully others to try and achieve that. And that is something that goes on right on this very chat site. Those who seek to exclude and excoriate others for what they are or what they think in order to feel superior and better about themselves.
The southern agricultural system encouraged the use of slavery and I don't need to add that it existed in the north as well and in the very town where I currently reside. Where I live their are monuments as well and no one seeks to deny us whatever we derive from them. And the reason is the north won the war. Which in hindsight was natural and inevitable. South fought against it tragically and for them it was all about honor and self-determination and brotherhood - all noble causes but all the more tragic for being so noble. For their system depended on human slavery though as I am sure you know most of the men who fought on the side of the south were not slave owners.
The purpose of the lynchings was not to deny anyone rights but rather a misguided attempt by the perpetrators to feel good about themselves, to feel superior. Pretty sad when all you have is that and nothing else which can make you feel you are somebody.
I was living when systematic racism was still legal in some places. It is no longer. That was done away with. However we can't pretend that race does not exist. I know white people who for whatever reasons for instance bad experiences do not care for black people. I know black people who do not generally care for white people. That exists and we cannot pretend it does not. I once spoke with a former Russian who fought for liberation their and after several years of freedom living in the U.S. his only conclusion was that black people have too much freedom here! Have no idea how or through what process he got to that. But such thought exists and try as you may you cannot put bars on people's minds. And people do want to feel good about themselves which sometimes leads them to denigrate other people or that reason.
Clearly, you didn't understand my comment that taking away statues cannot change history. You said pretty much the same thing I said only with more words.
Yes? Perhaps then I did not understand. I have no love for statues or relics but they are meaningful for some people and the ways they are meaningful can differ. While some my see a statue as connoting the days of slavery others may cherish it as a reminder of better times for themselves and their ancestors, better and simpler and more hopeful and yes even "nobler" times. Thank you.
This post was edited by officegirl at February 4, 2019 8:24 AM MST
I am not from the South. I do not believe it will rise again. But I think history should not be ignored. If we do not learn from it we will repeat it.
The few people I know from the South say it is about their heritage not slavery. That their families did not have slaves but they fought because the North was passing laws that put a burden on the South in regards of trade etc. And they were proud of their ancestors for standing up to the North. One was an employee explaining why he wore a shirt with the rebel flag on it, after I told him it was unacceptable at work.
No one, has advanced farther or gained more ground socially,economically or politically, than minorities in this nation. This is the only place that such could be accomplished and that is how it should be. In many areas of the world, minority populations are persecuted and have been denied basic rights and needs since the stone age. This progression of progress, was accomplished despite 150 years of historic honors attributed to the southern confederacy. This has also occurred despite the editing, rewriting, censorship and revision of history. It can also be said that the southern US has changed dramatically over the last century, in both attitude and perspective.You can find the past distasteful, but you can't change it. Other nations have attempted the same heavy handed tactics to no productive purpose. Many will take a rush to judgement over an education in American History any time. People, being the creatures that they are, will try the same unsuccessful tactics again and again. As a descendant of both slave holders and those who never owned a slave, I'm proud of my ancestors and their sacrifices, whether they were part of the plantation economy or yeoman farmers and tradesmen. That will always be a part of who I am if every statue and flag is dismantled. We could be fair about the whole thing and take down all monuments and shrines dedicated to all the wars in which this nation has been a part. Some of us might be offended. We might find justification in such a campaign to "change history".
tom jackson 