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Discussion » Questions » Politics » Do you agree with either, both, or neither of the following statements?

Do you agree with either, both, or neither of the following statements?

1. When Obama was president, things were more or less fine, minus frequent squabbling about polarization and gridlock in Washington. Since Donald Trump’s inauguration, the world has become a garish, nightmare-inducing cavalcade of terrible news, due primarily to the president’s general incompetence and tendency to make policy decisions based on volatile whims and reactionary impulses.

2. Trump’s ascendance was the natural result of the most staggering economic inequality since the Great Depression coupled with increasingly blatant racist and xenophobic rhetoric from the right.

Posted - November 2, 2019

Responses


  • 6477
    Ooh, interesting question! I bet it's grammatically correct too!  However, I cannot wholly agree with either. Both are too extreme and both too simplistic. You may guess, though, that my tendency would be towards the first statement. 

    My proviso is, that Trump doesn't particularly affect the world, or world news that much. It's just that most of the rest of the world find him repugnant, illiterate and stupid. We tend to shake our heads in disbelief at his antics than anything. 
      November 2, 2019 11:47 AM MDT
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  • 13257
    As I have said to others, he is repugnant and perhaps illiterate, as well as evil, nasty, and all kinds of other things. But I don't agree that he is stupid, by the simple reality that nobody who is capable of doing what it takes to organize a successful campaign and be elected president is a stupid person. Name any president of recent memory - Bush 43? Ford? Carter? Reagan? Not a stupid man among them.
      November 2, 2019 12:07 PM MDT
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  • 6477
    Well, you offer an interesting perspective, and I am always intrigued to see how others think.. But, to me, he's stupider than stupid.. to speak as he does, so lacking in comprehension and articulation, so overly-simplistic, so, moronic.. That to me signifies someone who lacks intellect. 

    As for the campaign.. he didn't really *organise* - he just went out, *****, whined, insulted and shouted his blabbering mouth off a lot.. Unfortunately, the dynamics there are such that that appealed to more people than it ought.. Which is sad :(

    Dynamics, interference and a number of other salient factors combined to result in him being elected, including the college electoral system..

    There's some question over the last Bush. He was the object of ridicule world-wide - we all laughed like drains over his stupid-comments.  Personally, I would never have believed there could be anything even remotely as stupid elected again... I was wrong! This post was edited by my2cents at November 2, 2019 3:50 PM MDT
      November 2, 2019 12:32 PM MDT
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  • 13257
    Every president we have had has been selected via the electoral college system, and Trump is not the first to lose the popular vote and win the election. There's no exception allowed when some folks don't like the outcome.

    And maybe he was smart enough to know how to behave in order to attract attention, which resulted in votes. A scary possibility, but think about that.
      November 2, 2019 12:43 PM MDT
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  • 6477
    I decidedly do think about that Stu. We'll agree to disagree on the, 'smart enough' aspect... I feel it's just down to the specific dynamics there.

    Re the college system.. I am sure you will appreciate that the not liking the outcome *because* of the system isn't one of my own personal beefs. The system is the system - we have a similar, but differently named, system here..  But it doesn't change the fact that Clinton won the popular/majority vote. 
      November 2, 2019 1:16 PM MDT
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  • 5391

    I basically agree with the first statement, though I won’t go so far as “nightmare-inducing”. 

    In the second, I don’t agree those were the primary aspects of Trump’s ascendence. I say that was a default of the failure of both major parties to counter Trump as a change agent. The Dems were so fixated on electing the first woman President, they badly misjudged how widely she was despised, even in her own party. Then they ran the worst WH campaign since Dukakis. 
    The Repubs totally screwed the pooch, as one by one, they laid down to allow the boorish pu-ygrabber to steamroll over them, and hijack their platform and the entire party. The flaccid GOP establishment candidates were all lost in their pale mediocrity. ALL will still bear the stink once Trump is gone. 

    Another point you and I may agree to disagree, Stu: IMO, Trump is an incandescently stupid man, consumed by his own delusions, and propped up by a shifting roster of enablers and lackeys who are either mortally afraid of his wrath, or have a vested personal interest in his favor. Or both. 
    What‘s worse, and the most persistent failure of his “administration”, is that he appears utterly convinced that everyone else is dumber than he is. 

    This post was edited by Don Barzini at November 2, 2019 3:52 PM MDT
      November 2, 2019 1:58 PM MDT
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  • 13257
    But my question is this: If Trump really is as stupid as you say, why would anyone have supported him and helped him get elected? By the same token, how would he have been able to convince people to support him and help him get elected? It makes no logical sense.

    IMO, it stands to reason that he's smarter than many people think, and he probably has had a few good laughs about it. The same was true with guys like Bush, Ford, and Reagan.
      November 2, 2019 2:57 PM MDT
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  • 7280
    Stupidity is a relative concept---much like the answer to how fast you have to run to outrun a bear.

    All Trump has to do is be smarter than his base---which would pretty much explain the Trump administration disaster that is unfolding. This post was edited by tom jackson at November 2, 2019 3:52 PM MDT
      November 2, 2019 3:01 PM MDT
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  • 5391

    I offer the following:
    -Because many people always vote their party line, regardless.
    -Because a lot of people hated the opponent even more.
    -Because Trump represented a sea change from the status quo. 
    -Let’s add that for the same reasons millions hold other nonsensical beliefs: because people are gullible. 

    None of that validates Trump’s intellect, only that he may smart enough to manipulate some lesser minds. 

    I noticed W wasn’t in your list of presidential examples. I submit his simple a$$ as evidence of stupid AND winning the WH. 

    This post was edited by Don Barzini at November 2, 2019 3:54 PM MDT
      November 2, 2019 3:41 PM MDT
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  • 13257
    "Bush, Ford, and Reagan." I mentioned Dubya right there. And he's a perfect example. A smart-enough guy with a Texas accent that people (elitists?) on the coasts associated with stupidity.

    You said it yourself about Trump: "smart enough to manipulate..." Maybe not the kindest way to express it, but an example of someone smart enough to convince people to support him. Ergo, not a stupid person. But it's OK to dislike Trump and admit that he's not stupid. I promise, you won't explode.
      November 2, 2019 4:34 PM MDT
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  • 5391

    As Tom said, I too, hold that stupid is relative. Relative to one’s understanding of intelligence, IQ, or what have you. 

    Having spent my adult life around academics, I cannot, on good conscience, agree to your point. Just not impressed. 
    Look at Trump’s meandering, ill-informed, unhinged speeches. Look at the disorder of his thinking, the closed mind; His unwillingness to read, accept briefing or counsel. Look at his limited vocabulary, his poor grasp of history and science, and his disrespect of other intellects.
    No, Stu, Trump is, by my standard, plenty stupid.
    That I dislike him is beside the point. 

    That the guy is effective at manipulating a certain demographic is more an indictment of their brainpower than validation of his.
    “Smart enough“ is a mighty low bar. 

    This post was edited by Don Barzini at November 2, 2019 7:47 PM MDT
      November 2, 2019 5:57 PM MDT
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  • 13257
    A further thought, Don B. Is it possible that Trump is smart enough to know that behaving a certain way would help distinguish him and stand out from his opponents in the GOP primary? That his boorish persona is (at least partially) a kind of act to attract attention, get people reacting to and talking about him, and ultimately get elected? This would have been based on the theory that any publicity, positive or negative, is good to serve a purpose. Admittedly, it perhaps served him better as a candidate than as president, but I can't shake the feeling that there may be more to him than meets the eye.
      November 2, 2019 10:20 PM MDT
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  • 5391

    Good points, Stu.

    I think that what Trump does, the nature of his behavior, etc., are the products of what has more or less worked for him throughout his life. Admittedly, he has been successful (in a way) at many things, by embracing the most expedient methods that meet his intentions and conform to his flawed character, while jettisoning ”unnecessary” collateral baggage like empathy, civility, and honesty. 

    To be sure, it is a stripped-down results oriented approach, but it is zero-sum; I win, you lose. Add to that a congenital need for adulation (insecurity), fear of perceived weakness (paranoia) and a talent for oversimplifications (like hollow buzzwords), centered around a grandiose self-image, and the formula is clear.
    But I don’t believe Trump is cognizant of any of this, as he just plods forward, absent detailed strategy, doing and saying whatever impulse strikes him in a given moment, impetuously; never having been held to account. The only real strategy is to litigate or loudly denigrate dissenters, and play martyr when nothing else works.
    (This is not an ideal model of leadership)

    This, at least to me, Stu, is not indicative of any great intelligence, only a robotic repetition of the same mofifs he has gotten away with in the past. As I said before, I also see it as an indictment of those who submit to those motifs. 

    This post was edited by Don Barzini at November 3, 2019 7:47 AM MST
      November 3, 2019 7:16 AM MST
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  • 17398
    Neither
      November 2, 2019 4:20 PM MDT
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  • 32656
    Nope.
      November 2, 2019 4:45 PM MDT
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  • More or less.   What's missing though is he's also the natural face  of opinionated clickbait, social media infotainment, and buzzword headlines over actual information and reporting of substance.  People have become addicted and drawn to sharp attention grabbing one liners and quips over actual depth.  Trump is the epitome of this recent cultural trend.  MAGA, Lock her up!, drain the swamp, Etc....  Sounds great on the ears but there's no actual steam behind it.  There doesn't need to be, just vacuous attention grabbing word salads. 
      November 2, 2019 7:08 PM MDT
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