Discussion » Statements » Rosie's Corner » How could anyone have believed motormouth when he PROMISED to bring coal mining jobs back?

How could anyone have believed motormouth when he PROMISED to bring coal mining jobs back?

The sourcing of energy has been shifting from coal to other for years. Did they really think motormouth was going to turn back to the way things were decades ago? Good grief were they not paying attention to their surroundings?

Apparently the largest coal companyjust declared bankruptcy. Wonder if they blame motormouth for making a promise that wasn't his to make and he certainly could not keep? What were they thinking?

Posted - November 4, 2019

Responses


  • 46117
    AND YET 49 PERCENT STILL WANT HIM?  FOR REAL?   I THINK THE COAL DUST SETTLED IN THEIR BRAINPANS.

    (FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW)
    brain·pan
    /ˈbrānpan/
     
    noun
    INFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
     
    1. a person's skull.
    This post was edited by WM BARR . =ABSOLUTE TRASH at November 5, 2019 3:31 AM MST
      November 4, 2019 8:40 AM MST
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  • 113301
    It takes all kinds Sharon and the unthinkers have flocked in droves to motormouth. I wonder why? Not really. Thank you for your reply! :)
      November 5, 2019 3:32 AM MST
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  • 3680
    I don't see how it would be feasible, technically, commercially or in personnel.

    For a start the world is trying to turn away from burning coal anyway.

    However....

    An open-cast pit that has not been back-filled and built over could be re-instated fairly easily.

    A deep colliery would be very difficult and expensive to re-open. It would be flooded up the local water-table with vast volumes of water all needing to be pumped out and disposed of without environmental harm. Any equipment abandoned down there would be useless and have to be removed and replaced with new. Even the last active areas could well have caved in. (The rock strata sandwiching coal seams are not at all strong and coherent - or "competent" as geologists describe it.) 

    Sinking a new mine anywhere into the same seams near such workings would be at risk of flooding from the old, especially if it strays into areas not well mapped.  A break-though into a water-filled mine would be catastrophic for the miners, let alone the mine.

    While open-cast mining is no different from any other quarrying, deep coal-mining requires a wide range of highly-specialised skills and experience; not least because the way the mineral lies in the ground, and the ground it lies in, are very different from the geology of metal-ore mines. As time goes by that collective knowledge fades as the former miners pass retirement age, or have found safer and more pleasant employment - or simply do not want to go back down the pit anyway. 
      November 4, 2019 11:09 AM MST
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  • 113301
    Thank you for a very thoughtful informative and helpful reply Durdle. Here's the thing. Allegedly coal is dirtier and more expensive. There are cheaper cleaner alternatives so why would any sane person want to pay more for dirty rather than less for clean? Except   motormouth who doesn't have a clue about what he promises to do? It' kinda amazing and appalling too. Some folks are clearly mental defectve deficient to really think that coal resuscitated is a good thing. Go figger! :(
      November 4, 2019 11:18 AM MST
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  • 3680
    Thank you!

    Coal can be burnt very efficiently and cleanly, in electricity power-stations; but the exhaust gases and still mainly carbon-dioxide and water-vapour.

    The sulphur dioxide it can emit, depending a lot on the nature of the actual coal used, is responsible for the pollution called "acid rain". It was found to be the cause of trees in Scandinavia dying, having drifted with the prevailing Westerly winds across the North Sea, from power-stations in Britain. The problem was solved by installing equipment in which the flue-gasses pass through wet limestone. The water dissolves the SO2 to form sulphuric acid, which in turn reacts with the rock's calcium carbonate to form calcium sulphate, which occurs naturally as the rock Gypsum, useful as it is the base material for plaster.

    Of course, this also means having to quarry, crush and transport limestone as well as coal to the power-stations.

    ====

    There is one use for coal that all the climate-change debate appears to miss (probably because most politicians, journalists and campaigners just do not know it). Coal and limestone are also needed to smelt iron-ore.

    The coal is distilled to coke, a process that also brings valuable by-products. The coke is the blast-furnace fuel as smelting needs huge amounts of heat at very high temperature (about 1500ºC I think); and as it is carbon, it sequesters the oxygen from the ore (iron-oxide) to leave the iron itself. The limestone melts and acts as a flux, "lubricating" the reaction and helping remove the silica (sand) and other natural impurities from the ore. The slag floats on the melt and is run off separately from the molten iron. The exhaust-gas of course is carbon-dioxide...

    So without coal how would we smelt iron-ore? Yes, the world is awash with already-processed iron and steel anyway, that can be recovered from scrapped goods and re-melted in electric furnaces (using vast amounts of electricity), but we still need yet more and there is always a slow attrition.   


      November 4, 2019 11:46 AM MST
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  • 113301
    So confine its uses to the essentials then Durdle. Why heat homes with it? Why use it to fuel manufacturing plants? And what does it do to the lungs of coalminers? The canary in the coal mine dies and until then the coalminers do not realize they are breathing in bad air? How does that change? What is iron ore used for? To smelt or not to smelt? You mean to tell me that we haven't yet figured out a way to do that in another safer better way? Frankly m'dear I didn't understand most of the technical jargon you used but I value your opinion so I'm guessing you think coal is a good thing when used for a specific purpose. So nothing will replace coal ever in that process? Or have we just not thought about it enough? I have claustrophobia. I don't go down into caves. I like to be by the nearest exit for a fast getaway above ground which is where I always plan to be until they bury me. Being down below ground so deep as a coal mine? You might as well shoot me. I wonder how many coalminers are/were claustrophobic? If they weren't wouldn't that job make some of them become that? Thank you for your informative reply m'dear! :) This post was edited by RosieG at November 5, 2019 3:43 AM MST
      November 5, 2019 3:41 AM MST
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  • 3680
    OK Rosie, I'll explain it.

    Coal is not used to fuel modern manufacturing plants, and is used a lot less for domestic heating, but it can be distilled by heating it in a closed vessel called a retort.

    That drives off the tar, gas and sulphur compound it contains and leaves coke, which is nearly pure carbon.

    Coke used to be used a lot as  aheating fuel because if used in a properly-designed stove, it burns very slowly but gives off a great deal of heat.

    Coke's modern, main use is used in smelting iron-ore, i.e. chemically reducing the ore to iron. Iron ore is iron oxide (rust!), and in the fierce heat of a blast-furnace the carbon is not just the fuel, but it reacts with the ore to transfer the oxygen from that to itself, turning the carbon to carbon-dioxide.

    Iron is the base material for steel, and is also used as iron, in certain modified forms.

    Pure iron has particular magnetic properties that make it ideal for concentrating the magnetic field in electrical generators, transformers and motors.

    Cast-iron is iron mixed with graphite (another form of carbon) and it has certain properties making it very useful making some classes of engine and machinery parts.  

    Mix iron with a much smaller amount of graphite and you produce steel, and that can be modified further by adding a tough more carbon, or other metals. Add nickel and chromium to the steel and it become stainless-steel.

    "Steel" covers a huge range of varieties, including the stainless ones, all developed for certain properties valuable for particular practical applications.  It is a vital material we just cannot do without. It is no exaggeration to say almost everything we use everyday has steel implicated in it somewhere, not always visibly, not always even in the thing anyway; but in its manufacture and transport, etc.

    So we still need iron-ore and the coal (from coke) to make new steel, though old steel can be re-melted for new uses.   As far as I know, no-one has found an alternative way to smelt the ore than melting it in an intense, white-hot fire of coke. Certainly not a way that is economical and would not bring problems of its own. It might work by heating the ore in a closed tube and passing hydrogen over it - but you need to produce the heat and the hydrogen, probably both needing vast amounts of electricity.

    The furnaces used for re-melting steel and iron can be electric, but also need all that electricity.

    '

    What of the tar and so on from the distilled coal? This can be further processed to extract various useful chemicals, and what is left is just that - tar, useable in road-making. Another by-product is gas that can be used as fuel, and was, on a large scale until the advent of natural-gas in the 1960s.

    '
    Coal-mining... Miners have probably not used canaries for a very long time. They would use proper gas-detectors now, which are portable electronic devices an da lot more accurate than a bird on a cage. And more humane! Coal-mines are heavily ventilated by using two shafts on each side of the seam, and forcing air down one and up the other, but the risk of methane (natural gas) is still there. That is the inflammable one that can form an explosive mixture with air.

    Canaries were used to detect high carbon-dioxide or low oxygen levels in the air. The Davey Safety-lamp was used for testing for methane. It is a special paraffin (kerosene) lamp whose flame is enclosed by a strong glass tube below a chimney made of fine steel mesh, which made any methane burn in the lamp flame, turning it from yellow to blue as the indicator, without setting off the methane in the surrounding air.

    I have a Davey lamp that used to belong to my uncle, who was a coal-miner in the English Midlands. It's lost the safety-lock that prevented anyone opening it underground, and sadly also lost the colliery name-plate, but it still works. Though I've not tried it in a gassy mine!

    The real health hazard to miners is not bad air but the  dust. It coats the lungs and over many years can cause all sorts of unpleasant diseases. A former girl-friend of mine was an ex-miner, and he had emphysema from years of breathing coal-dust in small mines that were probably not very well ventilated. I met him only once, and I could see how bad he was, struggling to breathe even when just sitting in an arm-chair. He had hardly the energy to do much else. 

    '

    Miners could not have been claustrophobic, but would anyway would have become used to the conditions. At one time, they would work seams down to about eighteen inches high, by hand; but as the process became mechanised I believe they extracted only the thicker seams. Some may have lost their nerve after accidents, especially in those old days when the work was very much more dangerous.

    Coal is fossil peat, from ancient tropical peat-bogs, so it exists as layers, called "seams", with fossil soil under them and other types of rock on top, but all these rocks are weak. Because it is mined as a layer rather like taking the filling out a sandwich, the roof has to be supported all the way along the narrow strip actually being worked between tunnels cut across the seam. The coal-face is the wall of that strip. Once that face has been cut back by the coal-cutting machine's width, everyone and everything moves forwards, leaving an ever-widening unsupported. void behind, and over time that slowly collapses on itself.

    @

    I mentioned metal-ore mines. Many ores including that of iron, occur in large concentrations at shallow depths so can be extracted by open quarries. Otherwise it occurs as "veins" formed in natural fractures in the rock, rather like the veins of mould in blue cheese. Metal mines are a lot safer than coal-mines, because they do not contain methane.

    I have visited a tin-mine in the far South West of England, still open but on a caretaker basis - it closed for a good a few years later. We descended the 1100-feet deep entrance shaft, standing in an enclose cage a bit like a large locker, to the main level, and after walking for some distance, boarded a cable-tram that took us down an inclined shaft to the 1400-foot level, though the shaft continued deeper still. We were actually out under the sea at the point, where we were shown the huge automatic pumps that kept the mine drained.

    The mine is now its own museum, and I did visit it. The entire mine itself is flooded nearly to ground-level, probably beyond recovery, but all the buildings and plant are still there. I stood by the grid covering the top of the shaft, and could just see the water below. It was strange remembering I had been down there, and because the whole place had not been over-curated it felt somehow haunted, and certainly very sad.

    I asked what the former miners did. Some found non-mining work locally. Others worked for mining or civil-engineering tunnelling companies elsewhere; but their county, Cornwall, is now a very depressed area having lost most of its once-major industry and relying mainly on tourism, farming and the much-reduced fishing.

    ++++

    Depth? Claustrophobia does not come from the mine's or cave's depth below ground, but the size of its passages. You can't tell if you are deep down below the entrance level unless the route is obviously down-hill, but you can see the roof and might even be able to touch it. Or have to crawl. Or not. I have been in caves so high you cannot see the roof even with a good lamp. I have also been in passages so high and wide I could not see the sides either - and that's a strange feeling!
      November 6, 2019 3:51 PM MST
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  • 113301
    Okay Durdle. I read every word and I thank you for the incredible investment of your time just to help me understand. So coal is a many-colored coat. So many uses for so many stages of it in so many things. I had two major thoughts as I read this. First how can you possibly know so much about anything as you do (hopefully not an impertinent question because I'm awe-struck) but more importantly it's like using every part of the animal. Throwing nothing away because every part of it is useful somewhere. I had no idea. I suspect many things are like that though. Simplified at one level which is the level at which people mostly remain talking about it but you dig down deeper and you begin to see the complexity. Short answers cannot possibly cover it. Ask someone to please synopsize it. WHAT? You can't. To do justice to it you can't take a short cut. Of course I do hope others will read this. It seems selfish of me to be the only one to benefit. Thank you for the education. There is so much I know so little about. SIGH. Good Job explaining it! Excellent in fact. Stupendous. Superb. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious! Gracias. Merci. Danke Schoen. Shot shunuryagalyem(Armenian). Thank you! :) This post was edited by RosieG at November 8, 2019 1:31 PM MST
      November 7, 2019 6:00 AM MST
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  • 3680
    Thank you for the compliments, Rosie!

    I've always had an interest and enquiring mind in anything of science and engineering. Some of that answer was what I'd learnt at school, but most I've picked up from various books and places over the years.

    On the other hand ask me anything about sports and entertainments and I'd most likely be lost - I was never very interested in sports and a lot of entertainments and their stars.

    Also, if I hear or read anything technical or statistical in the News I think immediately, is that accurate? I trust most of the reports I use but though they are generally reporting accurately, they can only relay what they have been told, so sometimes it's the journalist's sources I question.

    Having said that, a lot of journalists do not really understand such things and skew the matters by bad reporting rather than deliberate distortion. 

    Where di you learn those languages, especially Armenian?
      November 8, 2019 1:39 PM MST
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  • 113301
    I am of Armenian descent m'dear. I don't speak it fluently. In fact I barely understand it at all any more. Growing up my grandparents and parents talked both in Armenian and English so that was an advantage. I took 4 years of French. Parlez-vous francaise? Je m'appelle Rosemarie. Je suis faire de votre connaissance. When my son was in high school he took French so we'd sometimes talk in French at home. I remember learning the flag salute in Spanish in the 4th grade and I can still remember it! Juro fidelidad a la bandera de los ustados unidos de America. Why I remember that I have no idea! What about you? Europeans speak more languages than self-satisfied Americans. They only need to know English and don't give a rat's a** if they never learn another language! More's the pity. Anyway I very much appreciate your attention to detail when you explain things to me. Sometimes it just takes one word..the right word...to help things click. :)
      November 9, 2019 3:41 AM MST
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  • 3680
    I see! Well, you are more or a linguist than me.

    I don't know what sort of proportion of Britons do have a second language but we were all taught French at school, and some learnt other languages too, such as German. Foreign holidays have always been popular with us because we live so close to the European continent, with ferry and the Channel Tunnel links. In the last few decades British holidaymakers have ventured much further abroad: Americas North and South, Canada, the far East and so on.

    Consequently many Britons probably have a smattering of words, if only enough of the etiquette words, a few key phrases and an idea of numbers, to get by. The hosts do appreciate your efforts, even if they can speak English a lot better than you can speak their language.

    My girl-friend and I used a small convenience store in a rural town in the French Pyrenees, where there is a strong Basque or similar presence. We noticed the young man at the till chatted happily in that local language to one customer, French to the next and then managed some English with us - as we tried our French! 

    I have been to rural Norway about a dozen times, and on the first trip our party discussed learning languages with a group of Norwegians. They asked why no-one in England seems to know any Scandinavian languages, and we had to admit our schools only teach French, and perhaps German or Spanish. The Norwegians all learn English, and one or two of their party were fluent in it. We discussed this further and discovered a big difference in approach. The Norwegians start being taught English quite early in life, and as a living language millions of people use every day. On the other hand, our group agreed we'd all been taught French in our teens, as a matter of grammar rather than a real language, and more for passing an examination than communicating with real people.

    We had a rather strange view on this on one trip, when we found ourselves watching a James Bond film with Norwegian sub-titles
    on the television in a camp-site lounge. Even odder for me was once seeing a sub-titled instalment of Brookside, in a Norwegian coffee-bar. Brookside is a British TV soap-opera set in a fictional school in the North of England! 
    I think most can manage a few basic words on holiday  
      November 12, 2019 3:25 PM MST
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  • 113301
    You nailed it Durdle. You don't have to be able to speak a language fluently but the locals do appreciate an attempt with a word or two here and there. It means you care enough to acknowledge their language. I think that is the MAIN DIFFERENCE. Americans don't give a sh** about caring what other people from other countries feel or think about them. Not ALL Americans but mostly that's the attitude. "We live in America and all we need to speak is English. Go suck an egg". Honestly I am very embarrassed by their crass ugly self-centered narcissistic attitude. Such Americans are definitely narcissists. So full of themselves there is no room for anyone else. Sheesh! So I say "gracias" sometimes and get a smile. I mean Californians should know a little bit of Spanish since we border Mexico. I say "merci" sometimes because it pleases me. Everyone, even Americans who don't give a dam*, knows that means. It shows awareness of others and a tip of the hat to their heritage. Simple. Thank you for your thoughtful and informative reply Durdle. The ugly Americans aren't known for caring or good manners...especially the dementia don adoring worshippers. Apologies for that. Happy Wednesday! :) This post was edited by RosieG at November 13, 2019 5:18 AM MST
      November 13, 2019 5:17 AM MST
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  • 3680
    A week later, but Thank You!

    Actually the English used to have a similar reputation with languages but increasing overseas business and social travel, and immigration from so many different countries, has largely broken that insularity down. 

    Living physically very close to several countries with very different languages helps, too. The French coast is only about 70 miles South from my home, and a mere 20  miles at the shortest (across the Straits of Dover). Across the North Sea, to the East, are Belgium, Holland, Germany and a bit more remotely, Sweden and Norway. Spain and Portugal are a bit further away, as are Finland, Russia and the Baltic States; though most visitors fly there or use cruise ships. 

    What is noticeable that although English is perhaps the most widely-spoken of the world's languages by nations rather than populations; it's often American English and with affected American accents, even by people from countries that dislike the USA or American culture on principle! 
      November 20, 2019 1:06 PM MST
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  • 113301
    I KNOW you have a life outside of Answermug Durdle. I'm here all the time so any time you drop by is a good time for me. America is a melting pot and built up by immigrants. How the white nationalist racists who form the basis of the dementia don base dismiss their own ancestors seems incredibly DISLOYAL to me. And ungrateful unappreciative unmannerly. SIGH. I think your location is dreamy! You're not all that far from many different countries. What I'm near are other states. One just like the other basically though some are more kind than others. All Americans are not alike but the reputation is always set by the lowest among them. I don't know why. UGLY American not KIND AMERICAN or INTELLIGENT American or THOUGHTFUL American. UGLY and its gotten uglier with the advent of dementia don. SIGH. Thank you for your thoughtful reply and Happy Thursday! :)
      November 21, 2019 3:22 AM MST
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