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Discussion » Statements » Rosie's Corner » A long-time Answerbag/Answermug friend said "Impeachment is political not legal". How can't it be legal when the Constitution includes it?

A long-time Answerbag/Answermug friend said "Impeachment is political not legal". How can't it be legal when the Constitution includes it?

Posted - January 18, 2020

Responses


  • 10466
    Impeachment is political.  It's also legal.  Impeachment is a fancy word for saying charges of gross misconduct were made against a person in office.  Much like a person being charged for murder, impeachment isn't something to be taken lightly - neither by the accusers or the accused.
      January 18, 2020 10:09 AM MST
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  • 113301
    So the Constitution is a POLITICAL thing? Seriously? I find that impossible to process Shuhak. The Constitution OUTLINES RULES AND REGS. A bible asit were or a road map or a guideline or an instruction manual. How is that POLITICAL? Thank you for your reply. I am processing this and having a very difficult time. By that assessment all laws/rules are political. I dunno . Heavy.
      January 18, 2020 10:36 AM MST
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  • 10466
    Technically, the constitution is both political and legal.  It's political whereas it contains legal checks to control the government, yet it also contains "checks" to control the people (guidelines).  All laws are not political.
      January 18, 2020 2:05 PM MST
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  • 113301
    I'm unable to process what you just said Shuhak. Ya know what? I'm gonna look up "political" right now and then I will continue this post. AARRGGH! The first definition INCLUDES the word being defined! What kind of  cockamamie definition is that fer cryin' out loud? "Of, pertaining to or concerned with politics". Then I read "having a definite policy or system of government". "Of or pertaining to a state or its government". How is any of that helpful? It isn't. SIGH. Of course it is a question that begs to be asked so I shall. Thank you for your reply! :) This post was edited by RosieG at January 19, 2020 2:19 PM MST
      January 19, 2020 3:08 AM MST
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  • 10466
    It is a bit tricky to understand.  Political simply means 'relating to government'.  While laws are made by a government, not every law pertains to government (such as prohibiting spitting on a sidewalk).  
      January 19, 2020 2:25 PM MST
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  • 32661
    Impeachment is a political process. This is why both the House and the Senate get to make their own rules. Judges/prosecutors/defense/etc do not get to make their rules. 

    The Supreme court has even ruled that they cannot overrule an impeachment because it is political and not a criminal/legal process.

      January 18, 2020 2:49 PM MST
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  • 7280


    The Framers were students of political history, and well-read ones at that. The Greeks, the Romans, and the Europeans. And the record of history was crystal clear: Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Left to its own devices, even the best intended government bodies quickly spiral into either despotic anarchy or authoritarian dictatorships.

    They knew that the most effective means to constrain a government from coming to dominate the lives of the People was to make that government subordinate to and dependent on the People’s will. Likewise, they recognized that individual rights are gifts from God, or nature, and that respect for and protection of those rights must be placed at the center of just government.

    Furthermore, the Framers recognized that government must be restrained not only by a written and explicit charter, but by making the powers contained in that charter specific and limited, the road to hell being paved with good intentions. In addition, they saw that the preservation of the liberty of the individual requires that government power be separated out into individual branches, and that as an additional safeguard the powers of those branches be designed to check and balance each other.

    Finally, the Framers recognized that the essential activity of government, law-making, should be vested exclusively in the hands of representatives elected by both the people (the House) and the people’s state representatives (the Senate, before the 17th Amendment). The president was never meant to reign over the federal government like a veritable king of old, and Supreme Court justices were never meant to substitute their own policy preference for what the Constitution requires.

    The goal of the Framers is the same goal that many of us still pursue to this day: To protect the freedom and liberty of each and every American.

    The idea that the U.S. Constitution is irrelevant or does not have any lessons for the modern age is simply incorrect. Not only do organizations like Pacific Legal Foundation fight day in and day out to preserve, protect, and defend the guarantees of the Constitution and Bill of Rights across the United States, but the logic and rationale behind the protections of the Constitution are just as applicable now as they were over 200 years ago.

    https://pacificlegal.org/10-questions-about-the-u-s-constitution/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItPz51ZGO5wIV5JJbCh3-igoqEAAYASAAEgLZI_D_BwE
      January 18, 2020 2:57 PM MST
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  • 113301
    :):):)
      January 19, 2020 3:09 AM MST
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  • 32661
    And? 

    Is this supposed to claim impeachment is not political? That is bound by criminal laws? If so then you agree that all of the hearsay evidence the House allowed is not legally allowed. That Adam Schift should have reclused himself because his office had direct contact with the whistleblower. And of course the Pres attorneys should have been allowed to partcipate in the process. Along with all the things they did that would NEVER have been allowed in a preliminary hearing. 
    Is that what you are meaning? 
      January 19, 2020 6:04 AM MST
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  • 7280
    And some people can't distinguish between a concept and a word to be defined---

    And some people can only hold one idea in their heads at a time---

    And that is a real disadvantage when those same people attempt to come to reasoned conclusions.


      January 19, 2020 12:15 PM MST
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  • 32661
    And do you have a person in mind? 

    So no answers to what I asked? Does the impeachment process have to follow the same rules as the judicial branch would?  This post was edited by my2cents at January 19, 2020 12:24 PM MST
      January 19, 2020 12:22 PM MST
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  • 7280
    Quite a few actually.

    While in general it is true that the higher one is in the order of being, the lower one can go (reference Christ's descent into Hell), I find that tutoring in varying subjects is less effective when the person wanting to learn refuses to learn the background material necessary for that learning.

    And of course, when I am through explaining to certain kids in detail, some do ask me to explain my answer.

    Edit:   The Constitution of the United States is the central instrument of American government and the supreme law of the land. This post was edited by tom jackson at January 19, 2020 12:44 PM MST
      January 19, 2020 12:41 PM MST
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  • 32661
    Of course the Constitution is the law of the land. No one disputes that. 
    And as such it puts the impeachment process in the sole authority of the House and Senate. And as such they are making their own rules...rules that would not stand in the judical branch. 
      January 19, 2020 1:58 PM MST
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  • 7280
    So you agree that impeachment has legal aspects to it---glad to hear you've changed your mind.
      January 20, 2020 11:42 AM MST
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  • 32661
    I changed nothing. It is a political process....which is why the House and Senate are making their own rules. And SCOTUS will not review it. 
      January 20, 2020 11:54 AM MST
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  • 7280
    I don't see that your long-time friend is making a useful comment---the impeachment can be both, and closer to a legal procedure than a political one.

    Of course, the Republicans say it is an attempt to reverse the 2016 election.  Sorry, not true---the Senate can find him guilty and then not vote to remove him.

    The US Constitution is both a legal and a political document.

    Constitution---the body of doctrines and practices that form the fundamental organizing principle of a political state.

    In some cases, such as the United States, the constitution is a specific written document. In others, such as the United Kingdom, it is a collection of documents, statutes, and traditional practices that are generally accepted as governing political matters.

    Aristotle’s classification of the “forms of government” was intended as a classification of constitutions, both good and bad. Under good constitutions—monarchy, aristocracy, and the mixed kind to which Aristotle applied the same term politeia—one person, a few individuals, or the many rule in the interest of the whole polis. Under the bad constitutions—tyranny, oligarchy, and democracy—the tyrant, the rich oligarchs, or the poor demos, or people, rule in their own interest alone.

    (https://www.britannica.com/topic/constitution-politics-and-law)




      January 18, 2020 2:49 PM MST
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  • 113301
    Thank you for your thoughtful informative and helpful reply tom. I appreciate it. This whole politics thing is confusing as he**! I just looked up "political" and it tells me zip. Ya wanna know the first definition? "Of pertaining to or concerned with POLITICS". Using the word in the definition? Really? Then it states "having a definite policy or system of government" and "of or pertaining to the state or its government". It may make sense to you but it doesn't to me. I'm going to ask what people think politics means. I can't see why "politics" and "legal" are separate. Isn't any system of government based on laws rules regs? Too confusing. Here I go! Happy Sunday! :) This post was edited by RosieG at January 19, 2020 3:13 AM MST
      January 19, 2020 3:12 AM MST
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  • 1152
    Having read some of the others answers here, I'd like to make a few comments.


    Political vs. legal:  Of course impeachment is a political process. It could not be otherwise. The Executive Branch is the law enforcement arm of the government, and it is folly to expect it to investigate and prosecute itself. I suppose we could conceive of some sort of Internal Affairs Division of the government which would have the sole power to investigate and bring charges against government officials, but that would have to be implemented through some process, most likely requiring amending the Constitution.

    What is impeachable? -- That, too, is determined politically. The Constitution's exact language is "Treason, bribery and  other high crimes and misdemeanors." Translating from the late-1700s English, treason and bribery had about the same meaning they do today. "Misdemeanors" had a meaning more akin to "felonies" today. So, if Trump did shoot an older white man in Hickston, Al, that would be grounds for impeachment (shooting a young black man on 5th Ave in New York City would only make him more popular with his base...).

    "High crimes" is a bit more vague. The term "high" in this context refers to "high office." As noted above, expecting people in high office to investigate and prosecute themselves for abuses of power is silly. Hence, the Framers settled upon language they hoped would give Congress sufficient power to deter the Executive Branch from abuse, while not being so broad that Congress would impeach members of the Executive for trivial or purely political reasons.


    What is impeachable, Part Deux -- It is not clear if the Framers had a particular boundary line in mind when they included the impeachment power in the Constitution. Some historians  and legal scholars have argued that the Framers intended impeachment to be used much more aggressively than it has been in reality, akin to the way parliamentary governments regularly dissolve and reorganize.

    Others have argued that impeachment is supposed to be a very limited power, invoked only when an Executive officer's behavior broadly threatens the nation and/or the people.

    Because the Constitution is relatively explicit on the process of impeachment, but vague on what actions can motivate it, in practical terms an impeachable offense is (in the words of former President Gerald R. Ford), "anything half the members of the House and two-thirds of Senators say it is."

    Broader implications -- There is a tendency among some (many?) Americans to treat the Constitution as holy writ. I think that's misguided. The more one reads about how the Constitution came into being, and the many political debates which occurred around it and the many political compromises that went into its construction and ratification, the more one sees it as the best that could be done under the circumstances, not as an infallible dictation.

    To its credit, the US Constitution has been adaptable enough to enable the United States to meet many challenges over time. But that has involved changing interpretation of the Constitution, and sometimes amending the Constitution, to meet those challenges. And, of course, since people differ on how the Constitution should be interpreted or amended, the actual policies which are ultimately implemented are, as always, the result of a political process.
      January 19, 2020 7:31 AM MST
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  • 7280
    Just a question:   What is it about being Canadian (according to your profile) that you could cite to make your take on the US Constitution have probative value?
      January 19, 2020 12:34 PM MST
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  • 1152
    I'm not actually a cockatoo (though I currently "identify" as one). Other aspects of my profile may also not be 100% accurate. This post was edited by SaltyPebble at January 19, 2020 2:44 PM MST
      January 19, 2020 1:14 PM MST
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  • It is certainly a "legal" thing ... but hyped politically.  Pro-Trump folks continuously feel anyone opposed to him are doing it for solely political purposes.  They are so numbed to his lies and crimes that they aren't seeing things clearly anymore.  THAT is very dangerous.
      January 19, 2020 7:36 AM MST
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  • 7280
    I see that basic perceptions come quite clearly to you---refreshing indeed. 
      January 19, 2020 12:36 PM MST
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  • Thanks Tom.  I have an amazing grasp of the obvious.  
      January 19, 2020 1:42 PM MST
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