Active Now

Element 99
my2cents
Discussion » Questions » Religion and Spirituality » Gently, Brother/Sister, Gently, Pray...will you come to an atheist debate?
Benedict Arnold

Gently, Brother/Sister, Gently, Pray...will you come to an atheist debate?

I just watched a Neil DeGrasse Tyson video, and he told how modern atheism got started.
It was All-Saints-Day in Lisbon, very holy day in the year 1755, and everybody was in church when a HUGE earthquake came. Well the earthquakes are hardest on the tallest buildings - the churches - and so 80,000 people were killed as they worshipped. 

Then a tsunami came, and leveled the rest of Lisbon.
So, led by Voltaire, people started thinking; "Either God is not all powerful or else God is not all that Good either, to let this happen."
And that, according to Neil DeGrasse Tyson, was the beginning of modern atheism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb2Mu2d2ywA&list=PLYi0fCCfA5Ub-HgXHvCRLkSusj1EAh3Y9

* * *
So my question:
If God does not meet our human expectations of what it means to be good, and all-powerful, does that mean there is no God?

Gently, pray Gently...

Posted - February 20, 2017
Tags : None

Responses


  • Without wishing to trample on your beliefs :)
    ... i don't believe you need god to be good ... most people will inherently do the right thing whether they are believers or not... just my thoughts
      February 20, 2017 3:29 PM MST
    8

  • That is very beautiful Ozgirl...and peaceful...thank you!
      February 20, 2017 3:31 PM MST
    2

  • :)
      February 20, 2017 7:37 PM MST
    1

  • 1393
    "i don't believe you need god to be good" ok but "good" by whose definition?
      March 27, 2017 1:33 PM MDT
    0

  • There is only one definition... And that is decided by the majority of the culture in which you live... It changes through cultures and times... Is there a universal good or bad is another deeper question
      March 27, 2017 2:23 PM MDT
    0

  • 1393
    Very true OG

    In the absence of "a universal good or bad" which you rightly say "is another deeper question" good and bad "is decided by the majority of the culture in which you live" This culture might very well see it as "good" to kill off at birth all redheads. You and I coming from a culture which sees that as "bad" will of course strongly disagree with that. They, in turn, can ask us to get lost if we can't convince them that our values come from a higher/better source.
      March 27, 2017 4:06 PM MDT
    0

  • Yep... Though I was thinking is something more relevant.. Having a penchant for red heads lot... Rome... An easy one I know but a well know one... Even to get controversial America and guns...
    Here the concept of guns so freely available scares the crap out of us but accepted as normal for you guys
      March 27, 2017 5:00 PM MDT
    0

  • 1393
    TY OG

    Looks like we humans are a strange lot full conflicting and contradicting values. In your part of the world, as in many others "the concept of guns so freely available scares the crap out of us but accepted as normal" for the guys in the USA. Similarly, the idea of someone bursting into a public place and shooting people going about their daily lives, as you put it, "scares the crap out of us" all, yet there are many among us who think that the idea of a drone or fighter plane suddenly bursting into the skies above a public place and shooting missiles at people going about their daily lives as quite alright and justifiable.

    I think the sooner we all subscribe to a common moral code the better it will be for all of us.
      March 27, 2017 7:20 PM MDT
    0

  • 5808
    It is easy to tell if there is or isn't a God.
    just by one looking within, beyond thought and beyond Ego
    and one will know.
        If we are within what 
    is God's love and doing his will,
    He answers all prayers.
         If we just want the worldly things,
    we are not within His wants for us. 
    ...and some deny His existence
    because He doesn't get them a new car etc.
    ...most will deny His existence
    unless you can hand them God on a platter
    to prove His existence.
         Why?
    it is easier to be in thought
    than to be beyond it.
    and we are SO attached to our thoughts and Ego,
    it is all we know, and we won't let go. This post was edited by Baba at February 21, 2017 10:33 PM MST
      February 20, 2017 3:33 PM MST
    5

  • Baba, how lovely...ty very very much...you have given much contemplation to a meaningful approach to life, and I am very pleased to know you. This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at February 20, 2017 6:57 PM MST
      February 20, 2017 6:39 PM MST
    1

  • I hate answering questions only by quoting somebody else but in this case I'm gonna plead the Fifth and quote anyway. This extraordinary quote comes from a wise woman I've known for more than six years. She never talks rubbish, though sometimes her wisdom is presented in unusual form. This one is a pearl: 

    "What I love most is God's ability to be truly and genuinely non-existent...for the sake of my atheist brothers and sisters."

      February 20, 2017 3:35 PM MST
    6

  • Well I think that is a lovely quote, and WHOMEVER you took it from, I do agree with her...

    Dozy I found something else lovely today, and it is from that video with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, the physicist who is an atheist...but he listens to the religious folk. Well, he has discerned that whenever someone does not understand something, then they say "Oh that must be evidence of God." But when we understand more, then we no longer say it is from God.

    So Tyson calls this "The God of the Gaps," and then he says it logically follows that "God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance."
      February 20, 2017 6:49 PM MST
    3

  • That's really clever, and so very pertinent. In just a single sentence he's summarised the whole discussion: at least from the non-believer's POV. 

    One of my problems is that although I can't for a moment accept the existence of a God there are many phenomena around the fringes of perception that really do need looking at. Personally, I'm not equipped to do that effectively, though I can certainly peek under the curtain in the hope of satisfying my curiosity.
      February 20, 2017 8:06 PM MST
    2

  • Stating the question like that makes it a loaded question. Saying God is not like this or like that, sorta presupposes its existence.
    But to answer the question. 
    No, that does not mean that there is no God. But believing that he does meet our expectations, doesnt mean there is one either. This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at February 21, 2017 7:10 PM MST
      February 20, 2017 5:28 PM MST
    5

  • Thank you Lago, very nicely rendered!
      February 20, 2017 6:50 PM MST
    0

  • 7794
    This might interest me. However, I won't believe in God until I'm standing right in front of him. This post was edited by Zack at February 22, 2017 8:49 AM MST
      February 20, 2017 5:32 PM MST
    4

  • That is very clear and definitely stated, Mr. GenX, and thank you!
      February 20, 2017 7:00 PM MST
    0

  • 1393
    Someone said, "I won't believe I had a grandma 500 years ago until I'm standing right in front of her"
      March 27, 2017 1:41 PM MDT
    0

  • 11091
    If God exists, why does he make it impossible for some people to believe in him?
      February 20, 2017 5:53 PM MST
    2

  • Hi JaneS,
    I am not sure I could come up with an understanding of that...although there are some possibilities I am contemplating...

    Your question is much appreciated, and thought-provoking too.
      February 20, 2017 6:54 PM MST
    2

  • Le Galienne's paraphrase of Omar Khayyam touches on your answer, Jane: 

    Allah, perchance, the secret word might spell ; 
If Allah be. He keeps His secret well;
What He hath hidden, who shall hope to find? 
Shall God His secret to a maggot tell?
      February 20, 2017 8:09 PM MST
    2

  • Dozy, I am going to guess that verse was not part of FitzGerald's original translation...

    Here is why: I am convinced Omar was himself, very clear...his awareness of life, profound...
    And the term MAGGOT is rather pejorative...and I think one possible answer to JaneS question is that we are thusly encouraged to evolve our consciousness! I actually think it is our birthright to 'know' = understand whatever is out there...to KNOW.
    So as you are aware, I do use the word 'God,' but highly qualified (and mostly privately) because most of us are still in the process of even becoming able to 'know' what that word entails...

    And my personal experience is that we are treated/cherished in utter respect, as if we did already fully 'understand' - as if we had already unfolded our potential to Know...never with a dismissive term like maggot.

    * * *
    Whew! Not even sure I understand all that...hope it's not gobbledygook...
      February 21, 2017 10:24 AM MST
    1

  • No, that was Richard le Galienne's paraphrase. He uses "maggot" twice in his version -- not in a pejorative sense but to emphasise the difference between a supreme being and ourselves -- we are no more than maggots by comparison. 

    His translation is probably more accurate than Fitzgerald's, which, as you know, contains much Christian imagery, but Fitzgerald's is the more beautiful. 
      February 21, 2017 11:22 AM MST
    1

  • I am unfamiliar with The Richard le Galienne translation...however it certainly does shed light on what Jane S was saying...
      February 21, 2017 3:28 PM MST
    0