.
There's the rub indeed. Apparently the Brits are all running round like chickens with their heads cut off.....their government is folding in on itself, and they have no idea who will be the next PM. So....they've shaken the entire world economy....collapsed their own government....and doubtless they are well satisfied. I am quite certain all the Brits gave a great deal of thought to the long term effects on their decision. (NOT!!!!) :D
What is your share ozgirl? Who determines that? If you determine it what if you take something I think is my share? Do we fight to the death? Let's face it. Most folks are very selfish/self-centered/self-involved/greedy. Leave it up to them and nothing would be left for anyone . The world is getting to be more and more me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me.
Just my opinion. Thank you for your reply and Happy July 4th Monday! :)
I wonder if there will be another referendum and a rollback to what was before rolle? As unbelievable as it is it seems none of them had any clue what pulling out of the EU would do. Can you believe that? I read that some folks who voted to leave looked up what the EU was AFTER they voted and saw the chaos that ensued. Now you would have thought they would have INVESTIGATED FIRST! I guess it didn't occur 
to them. What a mess! Thank you for your reply rolle! :)
I must take issue with that Rosie. :)
While I would agree that a considerable number of people voted 'out' for reasons of immigration, it's important to recognise that this was not the only reason. Fairly little reading informs a person that the UK cannot function without immigration, so any who are thinking of a future filled with white faces are deluding themselves. Not uncommon in the politics of fantasy, I find.
However, there are issues here in the UK with regard to immigration, and that in part is due to the way the country functions. Unlike the US, large areas of everyday life are (at least partially) the preserve of government. This means budgets are set and infrastructure is balanced against perceived need. For far too long there has been no 'slack' in areas of UK life that have government oversight. The cash reserved for large areas of public services have been whittled down to the minimum by successive governments and the result is services less able to cope with changes they experience. The result of that is an inevitable reduction in services when they are stretched.
While it would be false to claim this is happening country-wide, it is true that predominantly urban areas, especially in the north and the midlands, have had many services cut as a combination of years (I would say, 'decades') of under-investment and the austerity measures taken after the 2008 crash. The result of these cuts are invariably fewer local amenities, or sometimes none at all. People find it slower and more difficult for example to get an appointment with a GP, to find someone doing NHS dentistry, or to get children into a nearby school.
If one combines this with a large net increase in immigration (and widely publicised 'insider information' from a one-time government adviser that an unspoken 'open door' government policy was quietly implemented from about 2003/4), you get not just dissatisfied people, but dissatisfied people with something to point at and be dissatisfied with.
Is the UK overrun with immigrants? No. But where public services are put at risk due to unplanned immigration, people will notice. And they have.
Personally I have no issue with people coming here, whatever their origin. It would be silly to think otherwise, since they are needed - and often wanted too. But I do object to having no plan for them when they arrive, which is roughly the current situation and has been for some years. What we have here is a government-created and EU-created problem rather than a load of racists screaming, 'Send them all back!'
The EU referendum was taken as a chance by a large number of people who feel they are forgotten, marginalised, ignored and ridiculed to kick the politicians they feel are responsible. In that respect there are vast similarities between the appeal of the 'out' vote and the 'happy-clappy' politics of Donald Trump. Cries of 'Racist!' have been spinning around anyone who has dared to question immigration policy (or the lack of it) for over a decade, but if you really feel that jobs and services have reduced as a result of unplanned immigration it gets wearing to be the subject of a put-down and be told you're a bigot for years at a stretch. Enough people got tired of it, and this is their response.
I have little doubt that if a similar vote was taken in France and Holland right now the results would be similar, or at least frighteningly close. This is what happens when people feel they are ignored, and the EU and national politicians have both done a fine job of ignoring people for about 30 years.
As for the future and a plan, nobody knows how that will turn out. Many ideas are currently being put forward with objectives other than getting the UK out of it's current financial hole, which mostly involve political infighting, protectionism, ambition, ideology and sometimes the settling of old scores. If you interfere with the public's warm blanket they rebel. For a majority in parliament the EU was their warm blanket and it's declared removal has stirred that body into a demonstration of many of their own shortcomings.
I did not mean to seem disrespectful m'dear. But I am in California. Not only across the pond from you but across the vast USA. I read on this side that there is consideration of a referedum that will allow folks to vote again the object being to STAY not leave because they did not anticipate the negative ramifications of the vote. Can the leavers rebuild the country? The UK is worth less now and has less influence. If Scotland and Northern Ireland break away because they want to remain part of the EU there is no UK. I read that your country went from 5th to 6th in the global economy. I don't know how that affects your influence worldwide but it can't be good. How much downgrade can you accept before things start turning up and how long can you sustain dealing with the unknown and keep moving forward? The leaders of the "leave" movement have resigned. Cowards all, right? Who takes over the reigns? Where do you go from here? It seems that the planning of this left much to be desired. Where were the PLAN B's? I can only react to what we are fed and see and hear. I am a very long way from where you are. Are you still sure what occurred was best or do you have regrets? Thank you for your reply MrWitch! :)
So you would kick me out of the country, Rosie?
I know some R's who say the same thing about Liberals....."just let them have California"....
That is not good for either side to be.
There are many issues Rosie, that much is certain. The referendum has no legal standing and no legal force, but it has huge political weight. Every politician I have heard mentioning the possibility that this can in some way be 'ignored' has been pilloried and derided by other politicians and the public alike.
A second referendum has no legs I think, at least not right now. UK politicians traditionally dislike the idea of holding these things and I have no doubt the result of the most recent one has caused them to become even less popular, if that were possible. The reason this one was held was undoubtedly a weakened Conservative government seeking to reduce the risk of it losing seats and suffering a reduction in an already small majority in the House. It was a Party political gamble, and it has roundly backfired on those who took it.
The possibility of having an independent Scotland is attracting some media attention (or it was) but again I think that's a non-starter right now. While not impossible, the EU has already made it clear that it cannot negotiate with the UK as a whole (which is what the referendum result applies to) while negotiating separately with a part of the UK. As a result, Scotland is highly unlikely to be offered a way to 'stay'. It will almost certainly be offered a way to 'come back' at a later date, though this will present it's own problems both in Scotland and the UK as a whole, among which might be a change of currency for Scotland, open borders to Europe via established Scottish territorial waters, a financial distancing from England/Wales/Northern Ireland, the removal of the Bank of England as financial guarantor, and a potential reduction in Scotland's EU status. All those problems would be predicated on a second Scottish referendum opting for splitting the UK. I honestly think that's too much for all but the most die-hard nationalists in government to support, or blithely embark upon.
The wider role of the UK will change in the coming years and it will reduce, but this is a fairly honest reflection of people's general thoughts. Such a change is wanted by many who think the price for 'punching above our weight' as a nation is often too high. The fallout from Iraq will take a long time to settle and it still influences this nation's perception of itself - negatively. The real issue is who or what will move into that gap the UK will inevitably leave. On that I have absolutely no sure idea, though I think China is a good bet in the short term.
The economy is presenting some issues of concern, as was to be expected. How much of this is genuine, how much is unhappy remain voters acting emotionally (some journalists and bloggers are making fools of themselves) and how much is just the all too familiar fluctuations of the markets I couldn't possibly say. Since I'm fairly financially ignorant that's to be expected, but nobody else seems to know either! :)
People who were front and centre of the leave campaign are disappearing rapidly that's true. 'Coward' is perhaps rather harsh. I've made reference to the internal politicking this has caused, with both major parties in chaos. This is the perfect time to knife your long-time 'friend', advance one's own ambition and climb the greasy pole. It's an opportunity many are taking. I'm not, I have to say, in any way surprised. Boris Johnson left the race for Conservative leader when he lost the support of a central member of his team. Nigel Farage has made it clear he intends to resign from his current post and cites death threats as a reason. While I think both men have no more idea of what to do now than any of the other headless chickens, it would seem their departure was not entirely of their own volition.
The UK still has a government, but they're currently too busy choosing a successor to Cameron to actually look and behave like one. Once this elevation of whoever is done and dusted some significant work can begin. As to any detail of what that might be, I'm clueless and I think the politicians are too. If anyone has any ideas those people will be senior civil servants, who will be trying to navigate the mess as I type. :)
For me all this stuff is incidental and there are no regrets. I didn't vote out for any reason I've mentioned and I'm not affected overmuch by cuts to services. I only cared about one thing, and that was the principle of accountability, something the very structure of the EU works to avoid. Without the ability to hold law makers to account there can be no democracy and unfortunately the EU is still working on the same principles of avoiding the inconveniences of democracy as did Jean Monnet in the 1940s.
That's not adequate and I could not vote to accept or tolerate it. My main fear now is that the idiot public will continue to elect neo-liberals without realising these people are the problem rather than the solution.
Thank you for a very thoughtful, helpful and information-filled analysis MrWitch. I appreciate the time you give to help me understand these complex issues when I clearly don't. We cannot find any analysis by "pundits" or "experts" on this side of the pond remotely close to what you regularly provide us so thank you for letting us see inside the walls. I suppose we are always blind to what will come and ignorant of all the possible ramifications of our actions and inactions. Rarely is it so visible as the UK departure from the EU. Practically speaking legally it is going to take two years for the divorce, correct? Then there will be the years of learning to live without each other. Finally there will be progress once a stable foundation is established. We never know in advance if change will be for the better or worser. Only after ,in retrospect, will we know. I don't know how long it will
take to get to "after" in this case. I think it will take a pretty long while. Happy Wednesday m'dear! :)
No m2c .You completely misunderstand the question. It is not I who says that. It was the peasants who said that as they were going after the patricians. Do you see yourself as a patrician whom the peasants want to do away with or as a peasant who is a proponent of doing away with the patricians? In either case I don't want to get rid of anyone. I would like some folks to stifle it when it comes to the use of racist/bigoted/hateful/misogynistic language. But what I want and what I will get are not remotely related. So do you understand the question NOW?
The process will take longer than two years Rosie and almost certainly will not be finished when EU membership expires (two years after Article 50 is enacted). Trade deals with independent nations will probably take less time than before, given that there will be fewer nations negotiating. It should be remembered that when the EU negotiates on behalf of member states, it is not one body but a collection of 28; 27 when the UK leaves.
We (by which I mean the western world) cannot live without each other. What will change is the way the UK lives with others, not whether it will or not. There are reports, not widely circulated and which I haven't checked, that representations have already been made to HM Government concerning trade deals - all from nations whose trade with the UK had previously been hampered by EU restrictions.
Portions of the UK, European and US media have attempted to fit these events into a narrative which is not entirely honest. The picture painted is all too often of an isolationist, separatist, prejudiced and ruined nation that nobody will want to talk to. Such are the results of the journalism and politics of hyperbole I'm afraid. :)
Yep m2c. Precisely!
:) ((hugs))
