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Discussion » Statements » Rosie's Corner » If we don't learn from the past we are destined to relive it. Apparently we didn't learn anything from how FASCISM destroyed Germany. Why?

If we don't learn from the past we are destined to relive it. Apparently we didn't learn anything from how FASCISM destroyed Germany. Why?

Which came first? Adolf Hitler or FASCISM? We never thought it would engulf the United States of America but here we are anyway. How many times must we relive the same degradation humiliation abomination before we learn what happens when you "go with the flow" rather than fighting it and forcing it to go another way?

Posted - January 22, 2019

Responses


  • 3719
    Your country is a very long way from the Nazism of Hitler or the Fascism of that theory's inventor, Mussolini.

    It is nearer chaos than the rigid, bureaucratic, military order of those dictatorships.

    As to which came first, those two invented what they called National Socialism and Fascism, respectively, but the drives behind such regimes are by no means new. Communism preceded them by a decade or so; and is just as cruel. The Reign of Terror that followed the French Revolution was well-named. For centuries before that, European countries were riven by first, intense theocracy then sectarian strife. These all have traits in common, mainly the desire by ruthless factions of very small-minded, greedy people to take control by brutal means, whatever the dogmas, methods or consequences. 

    The Nazis' views on race were not entirely theirs either, but based on a mixture of common anti-Semitism and a pseudo-science called Eugenics, which had a widespread following from the early years of the 20C. to the end of WW2, when full horrors of Hitler's regime became known.

    There undoubtedly is a growing nationalist streak in many Western  nations, more so perhaps in Europe for various reasons. The danger lies not in those ideas, but in governments failing to answer the concerns behind them, satisfactorily. Instead they tend to retreat behind sneers like "populist", which appears to be a word coined in your last Presidential-election campaigns to attack politicians who might dare to sympathise with fears raised by of all people, the electorate. 



    Whatever might be going wrong in the USA now, and however inept and narcissistic your current President is, I would not accuse it of becoming fascist.  After all, I gather you are gearing up for selecting candidates for the next Presidential elections, and don't appear to lack candidates, according to one of today's BBC Radio Four news programmes. If your government was turning fascist, its first target would be candidates and elections!
      January 22, 2019 4:33 PM MST
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  • 113301
    FASCISM
     "A governmental system led by a dictator having complete power forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism regimenting all industry commerce and emphasizing an AGGRESSIVE NATIONALISM AND OFTEN RACISM."

    FASCIST
    "A person who is dictatorial or has extreme right-wing views"

    The boss ostensibly shut down the gubment because he wants a wall which is a national security  issue sez he which is a bunch of CRAP.
    By shutting down the gubment he has effectively detoothed and declawed the FBI causing it to now be unable to continue many of its duties pertaining to protecting the NATIONAL SECURITY of our country due to lack of funds. I believe this is the 33rd or 34th day of the shutdown. Things are growing DIRE with regard to our vulnerability to whatever is out that trying to harm us. He is attacking our national security more surely than a wall could ever protect it. Don't you see that? That is FASCIST enough for me when coupled with his words and actions and obvious preference for and loyalty to Putin and Russia as he has continued to throw America and its citizens under the bus. So I disagree with thee absolutely irrevocably absolutely totally. Thank you for your reply and Happy Wednesday. This post was edited by RosieG at January 23, 2019 1:54 AM MST
      January 23, 2019 1:47 AM MST
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  • 3719
    The word "Fascism" was invented by Mussolini, but I don't think your country is heading that way. Where I really disagreed with you was that you seemed to imply America is heading the way Germany went under Adolf Hitler.

    Yes, Mr. Trump is a clumsy, dictatorial narcissist, but I think the USA can stand up to him. Unless he really goes too far, bans elections and stages a coup, which I can't see him managing even if he wanted to try it, you (the electorate) will be able to boot him out in the next year or so. If you don't, then clearly he's doing something to make himself sufficiently popular - although I can't see what it is.

    I know his main campaign point was "making America great again" - admitting it has fallen from being "great". It appeared to hinge on being able to revive lost or dead industries. I know the US economy is better than it was before he became President, but I don't know if that would have happened anyway. Trade wars won't help, though, since no-one "wins" them, but only comes off the less damaged.


    I agree he is doing enormous damage to his and your country, and his fawning over people like Putin is worrying to everyone else; but is he still popular enough to win the next election? I can't see any of those unfortunate unpaid governmental staff voting for him, or indeed his party, for a start.

    What's happening there is very serious, but I think your nation is strong enough to withstand Trump's presidency, and repair the damage after he's out of the White House. Please don't write your country off because of Trump. I believe he is only a temporary aberration.

    +++

    I'll end here on an amusing note.

    On her live show on BBC Radio Four this evening, the English comedienne Angela Barnes satirised nationalists, and said most of them (the male ones) are also mysoginist. Having disposed of the British ones, she turned on Donald Trump as very nationalist and mysoginist; and wondered how she might meet him.

    In a dress printed as the US flag, she suggested? "That would puzzle him", she said, "He'd think, 'It's a woman but it's also the national flag'."

    Then added, "If I really wanted to blow his mind I'd dress in a Stars-&-Stripes burkha!" 
      January 23, 2019 4:09 PM MST
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  • 113301
    Thank you for your reply Durdle. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I remind you that you are outside looking in.  That does not invalidate your observations of course. However if you were personally LIVING IT as a government employee who is FORCED to work without pay whose child needs meds they cannot afford...or someone who will be evicted tomorrow (when the second paycheck would have been delivered but won't be). Or someone who is standing in bread lines (literally) or has to decide between getting her CHEMO treatment and paying the rent I believe your first-person experience might change your view somewhat. Then again perhaps it wouldn't. I know this. It will get worse. When it gets better I cannot foresee but it will not happen easily or soon. In the meantime people are suffering more each day. It isn't just the 800,000 gubment employees. All the contractors and subcontractors will never get paid. Our intelligence agencies are now being badly harmed/hobbled by lack of funds to continue doing the work they are charged with doing...protecting the United States from foreign adversaries. The "boss" has seen to it that the FBI investigations into him don't have the funds needed to carry on full bore. You think he not a FASCIST? I don't know what you need to see.  So we disagree. So what? What I think or what you think matters not at all. SIGH.
      January 24, 2019 4:41 AM MST
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  • 3719
    I am perfectly aware I am a foreigner to America, which has two effects.

    One is that I am not affected either way myself; but that does not blind me to the plight of those poor employees - especially as I was once a lowly-ranked civil-servant myself once. Until privatised, via a poor deal involving some shady bunch of New York-based money-traders.

    The other is that it is harder for me to understand what is going on: we see more of the international, not internal, affairs. Also of course at the moment, most of our own news and current-affairs reporting is about something called "Brexit" - on which DJT himself has remarked.


    Despite Brexit though, the whole matter including the stopping of so many people's pay and payments to contractors, etc, is being reported on the News here. We can only watch, wonder what the Hell the US President thinks he is doing, and have every sympathy for those poor people. The actual argument within Congress itself, is of course America's own business, though it is reported here, but our hearts go out to the innocent victims of the cross-fire.


    I think our main disagreement is over the definition of "Fascist". I am from only one generation after World War Two, in a country that fought valiantly (later and very gratefully with American help) to destroy one of the most murderous regimes of the 20th Century. So we tend to see fascism nearer ist origins - we have small but intensely irritating and even dangerous, neo-Fascist / neo-Nazi groups in Britain and Europe, and they touch a very sore point, but I don't see American politicians behaving like them or supporting their ideology. There are huge differences between Hitler and Mussolini, and come to that Stalin, and your current president.

    At a simple level, those three dictators needed to be, and were, clever as well as ruthless; but Trump seems to lack the organisational sense needed to overthrow a government and rule a whole nation.

    Further, I would say that whilst he is undoubtedly callous by playing with so many people's livelihoods, I think it's more from sheer incompetence and petty party-political point-scoring than a wish to rule the USA as a single-party dictatorship.  

    He praises some very unsavoury characters around the world, but also says he is proud of his own country - he has a strange way of showing it, and it's hard to know how he defines a "Great America" nowadays. It was simple in the electioneering: "Great America" was to be a nation of collieries, steelworks and major factories exporting around the world again. I don't know what it is now.  


    I did not know he has undermined the FBI as you say - apart of course from the matter of not paying its staff - so it cannot function. I appreciate that is a very serious matter in an increasingly fragile world, with so many international influences in such a state of flux. I don't see that as being particularly patriotic, either.


    I still feel he will come off the worst, that the USA will become so fed up with Trump's incompetence and gamesmanship that it will throw him out of office at the next opportunity. I would be extremely surprised if he wins another term, but if he does, that suggests he is by no means alone in his views and incomprehension about the rest of the world.

    We Britons, like any other foreigners, cannot tell the US what to do internally. That's for you Americans. However, we do not like to see thousands of "ordinary" people in a rich, democratic nation pushed into poverty by their own leader, for his own, dubious reasons. And we are very concerned how the USA treats the rest of the world. Until recently it had a reputation for delighting in telling everyone else how to live, in usurping their cultures and histories, in foisting its own culture on all.  (The Communists used to accuse the USA of "hegemony", but that really was pot calling kettle black.)  It was already losing its world power before Donald John Trump, but I fear he is hastening the nation's decline, turning it into a mixture of horror-story and laughing stock, and himself into a complete fool.


    "Fascist" though? Well, yes, he is deeply unpleasant. He might fit your dictionary's loose definition. He does share traits like narcissism, hard-line nationalism and intolerance of opponents or any who ask too many questions, with the real Fascist autocrats of the past, and modern ones in some countries now. However, I still think he is a far cry from Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini, and the USA is not ready to allow any such regime. 

    I only hope events do not prove me wrong, for they do, it will be God Help, not Bless, America; and much of the rest of the world with her. 
     
      January 24, 2019 8:18 AM MST
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