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Discussion » Statements » Rosie's Corner » Do you think an 11-year-old girl who is pregnant by her father who raped her should carry that baby to term? Why?
RosieG

Do you think an 11-year-old girl who is pregnant by her father who raped her should carry that baby to term? Why?

Posted - May 16, 2019
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Responses


  • 6023
    I could argue it either way ... which is why I'm just thankful I don't have to make that decision, and am willing to leave it up to the individual female.


      May 16, 2019 7:10 AM MDT
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  • 113301
    Thank you for your reply Walt. I wonder how different your reply would be IF YOU WERE A WOMAN? We shall never know.  :(
      May 16, 2019 7:22 AM MDT
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  • 6023
    The best solution to the "abortion question" I can see ... other than people minding their own business ... is advancing technology to remove the fetus and place it in an artificial womb.

    The woman doesn't have to carry an unwanted pregnancy - and yet the fetus isn't killed.
      May 16, 2019 7:32 AM MDT
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  • 34957
    But until we get that technology we have to deal with what happens now.
      May 16, 2019 7:39 AM MDT
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  • 34957
    If I were in charge of the law, it would be illegal to kill the baby. The daughter (not Grandma-Mom) could choose to keep the baby or place it for adoption.

    Grandpa-Dad would be going to prison. Not able to take his child to Planned Parenthood to kill his other child and hide his crime to be able to continue to victimize his daughter.

    That said I would be happy with a law that prevented all abortions with the exceptions of rape/incest account for less than 3% of abortions. Most rape victims who become pregnant choose to keep the baby.
      May 16, 2019 7:31 AM MDT
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  • 19937
    "The percentage of women who decided to keep their child after discovering they were pregnant: 32.%. Half of the women had an abortion, 6% placed the child up for adoption, and about 12% of the pregnancies had a miscarriage or spontaneous abortion."
    https://healthresearchfunding.org/18-profound-statistics-rape-victims-getting-pregnant/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8765248

    "Rape-related pregnancy occurs with significant frequency. It is a cause of many unwanted pregnancies and is closely linked with family and domestic violence. As we address the epidemic of unintended pregnancies in the United States, greater attention and effort should be aimed at preventing and identifying unwanted pregnancies that result from sexual victimization."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8765248
      May 16, 2019 10:33 PM MDT
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  • 34957
    Every link you posted goes to the same study of 4008 women over 3 years.  Not sure how 4008 women are supposed to represent the millions of women in the US.  Much less that 44 of those 4008 women became pregnant from rape....but ok even taking their number. Meaning between 25,000 and 35,000 women become pregnant from a rape each year.  

    Between the years 2005 and 2010 (5yrs) 5yrs = 125,000-165,000 pregnancies from rape in those years only  6,600 abortions were recorded as rape being the reason a far cry from 50% of the 125,000 rape pregnancies. 




    Another issue is the frequency of rape-related pregnancy. Some sources claim very low frequencies, citing medical studies, and conclude that the total number of pregnancies resulting from rape each year is on the order of 200-500.[12] Others obtain somewhat higher frequencies. Holmes et al. [13] surveyed 4,008 women and found a rate of pregnancy following rape of 5%. Additionally, of 34 cases of pregnancy after rape, they found 17 (50%) had an abortion, 11 (32%) kept the baby, 2 (6%) gave the baby up for adoption, and 4 (12%) miscarried.

    Taking the 2005-2010 average annual reported rapes of 90,000 per year and assuming 5% result in pregnancy and 50% of these are aborted, this implies 4,500 pregnancies per year following rape of which 2,250 are aborted. The most extreme claimed rates of underreporting are necessary to bring this in line with AGI's claim of 13,000 rape-related abortions per year. Even higher levels of rape-related pregnancies have been claimed: Stewart and Trussell [11] cite the previously mentioned National Women's Study claiming 32,000 per year in 1992, and this figure is repeated by Holmes et al. [13] and by an AGI article in 2002 [14]. Stewart and Trussell extrapolate this to 25,000 per year in 1998 merely by considering lower crime rates. These higher rates, while somewhat dubious, are required to support the AGI claim of 1% of abortions for rape.

    However, adopting the DOJ underreporting figures, average implied annual figures for 2005-2010 are as follows:

    • 90,300 reported rapes (FBI figures);
    • 265,000 total rapes, reported and unreported (using DOJ figures);
    • 6,600 abortions in cases of rape (using Holmes et al. figures);
    • 1,218,000 abortions (AGI figures);
    • 0.54% of abortions in cases of rape.
    https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html#3

      May 18, 2019 11:41 AM MDT
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  • 19937
    I've given you links to 2017 figures and you're giving me figures from 2005-10.  Why don't you tell me how many women died from back alley abortions before Roe v. Wade.  The bottom line is that a woman should be able to get a safe abortion within the first trimester for whatever reason she doesn't want to have the baby.  For those who don't believe in abortion, don't get one, but don't take that choice away from those who do.  That in no way means that I think abortion is a form of birth control.  
      May 19, 2019 12:01 AM MDT
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  • 34957
    No...your links are to the same 3yr survey/poll/study from 1996. The same one that my link also referenced. Because they have not done it since and it you can call 4008 women over 3yrs doing it at all. 

    ....researchers from the Center for Disease Control examined national abortion data from the three years surrounding the rulings and estimated that the number of illegal procedures in the country plummeted from around 130,000 to 17,000 between 1972 and 1974. The number of deaths associated with illegal abortion decreased from 39 to five. 

    There is a human life killed in every abortion.



      May 19, 2019 4:37 AM MDT
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  • 19937
    There is debate about when life actually begins.  There are those who believe it begins the moment of conception and others who believe it begins when there is a heartbeat and yet others who believe life begins when the fetus would be viable outside the womb.  
      May 19, 2019 10:16 AM MDT
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  • 19937
    My apologies.  You are correct.  When I started to research this, the dates on the link appeared to be later.  
      May 19, 2019 10:13 AM MDT
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  • 34957
    Thank you.
      May 19, 2019 7:54 PM MDT
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  • 7939
    An 11-year-old does not have the capacity to make adult decisions. Yet, regardless of what the laws say, she would. 

    I don't think anyone can understand what it's like unless they've lived it, but when you're raped, it's not just a physical thing. It impacts the core of who you are. It impacts you emotionally. Rape is like a stain you can't wash off. Every touch that comes after makes you cringe. You might stand in the shower for hours trying to scrub away the event. You feel dirty. It takes time to heal from that. Months. Years. Everyone is different. But, you don't walk away from it and instantly feel ok. It stays with you. It impacts every interaction you have. Almost one-third develop PTSD. One-third contemplate suicide and 13% attempt it. Think that through. One-in-three rape victims will consider killing herself after. One-in-three. Rape victims are also 6-times more likely to use cocaine and 10-times more likely to use other harmful drugs. I'm sure a great many turn to booze as well. 

    Now, amplify that. Because, for those who find out they're pregnant, there's no moving on from the event. They're carrying a reminder of it with them everywhere. 

    Sure, we could say, "Be the bigger person. Carry this baby." You're not asking for a small thing. You're telling a woman to devote a minimum of nine months of her life to caring for a life. You're telling someone who likely already has PTSD and is at risk for substance abuse to keep her body clean to support the needs of a baby- something she may not be able to do for her own good without proper support, let alone to provide safe harbor for something that's a constant reminder of her trauma. 

    And, this is why the 11-year-old will make an adult decision regardless of what the laws say. Any woman would too. Because, if you're trapped into a decision, it messes you up even more when you're already struggling. The person with no choices will make a choice. She may try to miscarry. She may seek out an illegal abortion. She may just kill herself to be done with it. Women are not incubators. We're humans. To expect someone who has already been through such trauma to see to the needs of a growing baby for nine months... it is not realistic. Some women can. Some women cannot. Some women do not want to. If they can't or do not want to, nothing we say or do is going to suddenly change that or make them more capable "incubators." 

    I do not believe in abortion, but I would not be the one to put any woman or child in a situation that eliminates her choices. I believe that providing support, therapy, and education about the process is necessary, but if we eliminate the choice altogether, we aren't necessarily "saving lives." I very strongly feel that those who would have chosen legal abortions will find other means or they and their babies will face dire consequences. There will be more children born with birth defects and special needs. More suicides. More unintentional deaths. We aren't helping or saving anyone by eliminating choices. We're damning them. 
      May 18, 2019 1:21 PM MDT
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  • 34957
    I understand it is a terrible situation that I would not wish any to have to go through. Even worse for a child. And yes, they need support and counseling. And even more so if they choose to have an abortion because having that abortion does not change what she went through. It only continues the violence that happened. And that is more trauma for her to deal with. It is not a fix. And in the case in this question, a way for the rapist to hide his crime and continue to rape this child. The pregnancy likely is a way out of an abusive situation forcing it into the open. 

    Many women who have gotten the abortion say it was harder getting other the trauma of the abortion. Yes, something like that would vary from woman to woman. Again, where proper support and therapy etc is needed. 

    Less than 1% of abortions are because of rape. (The 3% is rape/incest/life of Mother) and to get the rest banned I would allow the exceptions.


      May 18, 2019 2:18 PM MDT
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  • 7939
    That's assuming that the birth of a child means the rapist will be brought to justice. The two are not connected. It's not like they DNA test every baby and then all the family members or the alleged father to confirm. Women don't even have to list a father on the birth certificate. Even if a minor delivers, the police do not come investigating. There are limits to what they can do anyway. A child giving birth is not a crime. The 11-year-old could have an 11-year-old boyfriend. A sad possibility, but a possibility none-the-less. Unless someone reports a crime, and unless there's evidence a crime has been committed, there is no investigation. But, for argument's sake, we could say there is an investigation. Unless they have reason to believe the girl's father raped her, they cannot get DNA from him. And, when we're talking about abuse within families like this, if the girl hasn't spoken up prior to getting pregnant, he already has her too terrified to talk. Uncovering abuse is not a solid argument for the pro-life/ anti-abortion movement. It doesn't hold up. 

    Also, my argument was never that abortion would not add trauma to the situation. I believe it would in most cases. The problem is, when someone is not in an emotional state to support the needs of a growing baby, no anti-abortion law is going to make them ok. There's no magic wand that can be waved that helps that woman through the next nine months. 

    It must be a choice. It has to be. If the woman is ever going to love, accept, or even protect the baby for a few months as it develops, it has to be her choice to do so.
      May 18, 2019 10:20 PM MDT
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  • 34957
    True it may not stop it at the time. But also may and there are cases were it has. Most children who are abused do eventually confront the abuser. And in the case of a rape pregnancy, the child is evidence. Evidence that would put the evil pos in prison. Allowing abortion is allowing him to destroy not his children's lives but also evidence of his guilt. I just cannot go there. I do think that any child that young getting an abortion someone should be investigating...at least Family Services. And they should get DNA evidence from any abortion for the reason of rape.
      May 19, 2019 8:10 PM MDT
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  • 6098
    When I was 19 I was not careful with my boyfriend and became pregnant.  I was not careful a lot of the time.  Immediately I had an abortion because I was not ready to be a mother and because I did not consider that my boyfriend, who I loved, would be a responsible father.  As he considered it to be mostly my doing.  As soon as I had the procedure done I knew it was wrong and seeking comfort with another lover he told me he felt like I was made out of plastic.  Which was exactly what I was feeling - dehumanized.  I made up my mind I would never have anything like that done again and I never did.  However were I in the same position as I was back then I would not hesitate.  Because we are not, nor will we ever be, perfect human beings.  By murdering our child we take on an awful responsibility, an awful burden of guilt which we always carry with us.  In the same way we carry whatever scars of being raped. Especially so for me because I never had children of my own. 

    Now I can say OK the child was me because it did not exist apart from me - which btw I do believe  although from another point of view I can see it would be thought of as rationalization for murder.  But nonetheless I prefer to plead only to imperfection and if we are not allowed to be imperfect, when there is no way we can be anything but imperfect, then how can we be human?  Either way the responsibility would be ours. This post was edited by officegirl at May 19, 2019 11:25 AM MDT
      May 19, 2019 11:16 AM MDT
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  • 6098
    Not to minimize at all your excellent post but I think important to point out that some of us experience it differently than you have or perhaps many others. For me it was more a loss of my feelings of autonomy rather than feeling "dirty".  Or only dirty in the respect of having been victimized.  And I would certainly have to take exception to your statement that every touch makes us cringe.  Because for me the touch of all those who were not trying to rape me became something I sought even more than I always had.  The more I was touched the more I could continue with my life thinking I am a worthwhile person than get hung up on the fact that one person did not respect me.  My boyfriend the first time, whose touch I longed for, was the one who regarded me as "dirty" because of what happened. And I was into drugs and alcohol long before I was raped and if anything they provided me with ways not to think about it or focus on it. 

    The times it happened I think I have handled very well because of that way of looking at it and of seeing them as pathetic jerks for their victimizing of me rather than as complete human beings.  But although things do recede into the past there are times when our feelings do not and especially have been sometimes with people where I have for just a second felt what I felt with the person who first victimized me - though that was many many years ago - and I freak. 

    With powerlessness I think most important is we need to regain our feeling that we are able to have control over our own lives and destinies.  So even though we have been victimized we have to think of ways for ourselves where we could have avoided being so victimized even if those ways are only academic and impractical. In order to regain our vital feelings of autonomy we need to see ourselves as being able to have that control over our lives.  Which means to see ourselves as at cause not in the sense of blaming ourselves but rather so we can see and feel that there are and would have been other options for us than just to have been victimized. Otherwise we risk seeing ourselves only as victims which is incapacitating. 
      May 19, 2019 10:53 AM MDT
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  • 7939
    You are right. Each woman processes it differently. The description I gave of the aftermath fits many woman, but certainly not all. I also think you made an important part about autonomy and feeling in control. That is a major part of of the recovery process. I think that's yet another reason not to limit the choices for women. 
      May 19, 2019 1:21 PM MDT
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