.
I'm sorry, but the man is unstable. Nice fellow? Perhaps. Idiotic politics? Yes.
If there's something to be genuinely outraged about, of course.
Being outraged over silly stuff that has no possible importance though, that's just embarrassing.
Hi MrWitch. I think Bernie is the type of person who is outraged about something 24/7. What outrages him seems to be more about doing for others and fairness to others than for self-aggrandizement. I kinda admire him for that. Thank you for your reply and Happy Saturday. DIFFERENT TOPIC! I was hoping I'd see you here m'dear! Well all he** broke loose after the UK split from the EU. Markets worldwide tanked and recessions may be next. Here's what we are being told via our news outlets and I want to check it out with you. It seems the LEAVE the EU folks are angry, anti-immigrant, working class whites who are older and not educated. They are JUST LIKE those who support Trump in the states. They distrust government and want to take their country back and not have to deal with the immigrant problem. Some of them voiced regret and buyer's remorse yesterday. They had no idea what they were doing and didn't consider any of the consequences of their actions. Like angry children striking out. I don't mean to be disrespectful but the world is in chaos or perhaps I should say much worse chaos than before all because of anger/frustration/nationalism . Is that true? Our stock market dropped 610 points yesterday. The world markets lost over 2 trillion dollars and the US lost over 800 Billion. Wiped out just like that. It is said that no one knows what the final consequences will be but it doesn't look good for anyone. Further the UK may dissolve. Northern Ireland and Scotland didn't want to leave so they may get a referendum and vote to STAY WITH THE EU and thus will no longer be part of a United Kingdom . Britain will stand alone having broken away from the EU and having had Scotland and Northern Ireland break away from it. What happens to Wales? I guess Ireland was never part of the EU? If I've stated anything incorrectly please educate/correct me my friend. I am very upset because this may be a precursor to what will happen in America IF Trump is elected prez. Having the UK leave the EU was not supposed to happen but it did. Having Trump become prez is not supposed to happen but it may well. So what is true and how do you foresee what will be coming next? Thank you for bearing with me MrWitch. Our newscasters are in a frenzy and so are all the ones who were reporting from the UK yesterday. Is it really the old white working class folks who did this and the young educated elites who wanted to stay part
of the EU? What is true and what isn't? I know it's complicated. I know we can't always believe the reports. Do you see any silver lining here or was it a colossal error? Thank you in advance my friend. :(
Easier said than done...;-D...
http://www.theonion.com/article/nations-liberals-suffering-from-outrage-fatigue-1190
Note: while the above example is specific to the early-to-mid Darth Cheney/Boy Emperor regime, it generalizes to many forms of ongoing government/Powers That Be abuse.
Hi OS. What's happening in Hawaii stock market wise? In the US the market tanked. Down 610 points. A loss of over 800 billion. Just like that. Worldwide a loss of over 2 trillion. Just like that. The UK pulling out of the EU has caused all of this. Like opening Pandora's box and releasing all that is bad. What is your take on it? The newscasters worldwide are having a field day. No one supports the leaving including some who voted to do so. They interviewed a few who regretted what they did and had buyer's remorse. What comes next? Mahalo for your reply and Happy Saturday. If true that the LEAVE the EU folks are the same kind of folks who support Donald Trump is this what is in our future? More chaos? :(
I wouldn't say unstable. But he certainly does operate at a very high, almost frenetic, energy level. He amazes for a man his age. Trump never accused him of being low energy. Thank you for your reply bh and Happy Saturday! :)
Disagree, he doesn't look outrageous to me, I say, never lose your common sense and don't let outrage in to cloud your judgement.
There is a lot going on Rosie. :)
There is some truth in what you notice being reported, though I couldn't quantify what percentage of the vote this kind of insular attitude achieved. But this was certainly an aspect to some people's thinking when they voted.
However, as a blanket statement it does not hold up, and is a simplification and obfuscation of real issues. For example, had there been no 2008 crash this vote would never have taken place. Had public concerns surrounding immigration been addressed 10 or 15 years ago the result would probably have been different in some places. Were the terms of TTIP less disruptive and potentially catastrophic some people's vote would have been different too.
What you have, as ever, is a bunch of people voting the same way for different reasons. It is possible to categorise people's vote based on their age and the results clearly show a gradual curve between the generations. Significantly more youngsters voted to remain (about a 75/25 split), while more pensioners voted to leave in much the same proportions. All ages in between showed a gradual shift in numbers from one side to the other.
I am not surprised by the narrative currently being run in news outlets. It's a continuation of parts of the narrative used by the Remain side during the campaign, which is already known to have significantly annoyed a large number of voters. They're essentially being called (and were by implication called during the lead up to the vote), ignorant, racist, uneducated, insular, bigoted, etc, etc. It's another version of the response first issued by the then Labour government when some began to question the wisdom of how the immigration rules were being run over a decade ago. Their answer then to a difficult question was to essentially say, 'Shut up, racist.' and ignore the issue.
As such, it falls into the error that got us here in the first place. Politicians have to be able to recognise the reality of their people's lives and find solutions (or at least try) to problems constituents experience. That's their job. Failure to do their job means people will lose faith that they can do the job at all. This feeling (one I have had for over 30 years) has passed party lines and now applies to the entire group. Much the same thing is happening and for the same reasons, in the US.
People feel ignored and overlooked, ill served and denigrated by an isolated political class that no longer works for them. This is not a fantasy and though they may not have higher qualifications, people don't need a degree to figure out they are doing the same job for £8 an hour now and were getting £12 an hour 15 years ago.
I'm sure many people's votes were influenced by issues I've not touched on, but for me the central issue (though not the only one) was one of accountability. I think the conventional form of representative democracy is a rubbish system, corrupt and venal - but it's the best we have. A system in which it is impossible for the public to directly affect law making bodies is not a democracy, but something else entirely.
That was always the problem with the EU after Maastricht in 1993, when the organisation actively changed from a trade bloc to a trading bloc with political ambitions. It's more complex than I've described and there are nuances, but whichever way you look at it the EU is a dictatorial body. It's a benevolent dictatorship to be sure, (most of the time) but a dictatorship nonetheless and that, I'm afraid, is unacceptable.
Thank you for a very thoughtful and informative reply MrWitch. It does not help me much however since the LEAVERS have now opened Pandora's Box and they do not even know what it is they unleashed. No one does. People are angry and dissatisfied and feel cheated. When wasn't that true? You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You don't cut off your nose to teach someone else a lesson. The damage done includes damage to everyone including those who voted to leave to unburden themselves of onerous weight. Now what happens? Will it ultimately be better for anyone? For whom and how long will that take? A headline in the news this morning says "Brexit may take 10 years ". Ten years of what? Throw out the existing government and whom do you get to replace it that you KNOW IS BETTER? It's always going to be a crapshoot and once you throw out the old you have to live with the new you gave the reins to and what if they take you to a worse place? The problem is it wasn't just the UK. It was everyone. The LEAVERS took down and out a lot of people who didn't get to vote or choose. It's like hooking everyone up to a rope. When the leader goes over the edge he takes everyone else with him. Are your brother's keeper? Are you an island unto yourself or part of the main? I do not understand it at all. I hope you forgive me for that. I would not want our friendly acquaintanceship to be jeopardized over this but I cannot pretend to understand what I don't nor can I lie to you just to preserve the relationship we have had. Thank you again for trying. Apologies again for my inability to accept as valid the course the LEAVERS chose to take to make things better. I don't have solution but I do not think this is a good one. Time will tell. I heard that over a million folks want another referendum...some of whom voted to leave and regret it. I also heard that is 10 times the number of people needed to have it happen. All we can do now is watch the avalanche roll toward us getting ever larger. I know it sounds dramatic but it is exactly what I see happening. Mind you I am ignorant and an observer and an outsider which I acknowledge. However I am being affected and because of that I am putting my two cents' worth in which is now worth less. The pound has decreased in value 
substantially and Trump said that is a good thing. It will attract people to visit because their money is worth more than yours. Of course Trump is always looking out for making a buck even in such chaos as this. :(
What you see in the markets a the moment Rosie is little more than a blip. Billions of $ have been invested in Sterling in the last few weeks on the assumption that the vote would be for remain. Naturally, once this bet turns sour, people will want to get rid of their Sterling stocks because that's not why they bought them and the future is uncertain. So we have sudden fluctuations. This may continue for a few days or weeks, but I think it will have stabilised within the year.
Whether people feel they will lose or gain by this, the decision is as valid as you can get. Democratically speaking it has more validity than any vote cast in the UK in the last 50 years or so. Of course not everyone will have cast their vote in full possession of the facts, but there's nothing new there. Democracy has responsibilities, one of which is to be adequately informed. There's no point in people complaining after the event that they have changed their mind because they 'didn't understand'.
As for governments well, we'll get the ones we vote for. And this is where things get sharp and where people should focus, because the next few governments elected will to some extent at least shape the direction the nation goes. Frankly, I'm optimistic in the longer term, but see a long list of stuff to do before that optimism can be seen to be justified. It will be a difficult road and an expensive one, but there are significant advantages to be gained outside the EU just as there are within it.
It may indeed all go tits up, but that is always a risk and not necessarily a larger one than remaining. The EU is a mess, and I mean a proper, unmitigated, rats maze of a mess. Worse, it has little capacity to get itself out of the mess it's own ideological intransigence has got it in. Too much has been attempted too fast and without proper consultation of the electorate (and UK governments have in the past pressed for this speed, often at the urging of the US). The people who make up the European nations have all been pushed too far too quickly and have large levels of dissatisfaction as a result.
That's a recipe for disaster if issues remain unaddressed or ignored, which is what has happened up to now. With luck, the UK leaving will enable the nations who remain to lance that particular boil and the chance of civil disorder in the EU will reduce. I doubt it however.
The EU is currently concentrating on not losing any other nations, and it will seek to make an example of the UK in the coming negotiations. They will find it extremely difficult to give concessions to remaining states.while the UK is leaving, since they will be playing hardball. EU leaders are already calling for the UK to go immediately to minimise any rebellious feelings in member countries. The EU really is in the realms of 'straw, camel, back' here.
At base it's the same issue wherever you go in Europe. People like the idea that they have a say in their futures. I'm afraid that by the way it is structured the EU directly and negatively affects that. As an institution it has made moves towards being more democratic, but it's a long way from doing this satisfactorily and it really is too little, too late.
Well, imagine if we did?
Before it was needed to be dispensed with, that is. We can live in eternal bliss and outrage will fall by the wayside. But since we are down here in hell? We need to be aware that there are heavy feet waiting to stomp us out at any moment. Sad, but true. We give up? We die.
If we give up? We give the world to Sara Palin and her ilk.
((hugs)) OK. Why the hug? Because once again your patient explanation makes me feel better. Ignorance on my part is not only embarrassing but scary. So the road ahead will be rocky for awhile but all is not lost? I saw/heard a very interesting discussion about how the EU came into existence. Per the panel it was because Europe was tired of wars having experienced WW 1 and 2. Millions of people died..I was shocked at how many millions. My knowledge of world history is not comprehensive. After a few starts and attempts to find way to prevent a World War 3 Europe came up with the EU. The United States of Europe one panelist called it . The idea was to allow people to roam across borders freely and all of Europe would be home to all the people there. I guess Ireland never joined. But it was indeed a noble reason I thought (if what they said was true). Since I'm an American I never experienced it personally of course and frankly never thought much about it. I knew that EU meant European Union but that's about it. But now? First of all I had no idea that one country pulling out of an agreement could cause such a reaction. Now you have to deal with Scotland and Northern Ireland possibly breaking away and there will no longer be a United Kingdom if that were to happen. Could it happen? So your country will be entirely unattached to any other countries and you see that as a good thing? Maybe nationalism is rooted in distrust of "the other". I don't know. That is what Trump is promoting and his supporters love him for it. I've always been happy to be an American because I'm first generation and my parents and grandparents became naturalized citizens because they felt America was the greatest country in the world. I'm not so sure that is true because some of our politicians are rascals to be kind and racist bums if I tell it like it is. They want white because it's alright . I've read about increased homophobia and racism in France. Is it true in your country too? Being of Armenian descent I have always related to people of color not "whites". I suppose people of color can be racist too. I'm rambling because my thoughts are all jumbled up. I guess what will happen is what is supposed to happen when there is an uprising. The people spoke. Now let's see what speaking up does for them. :)
We can safely say that the status quo it is not Rosie. :)
Will Scotland wish to leave? Perhaps. Will they be able to? Perhaps not. As a small nation, Scotland's economy is overly reliant on a high oil price. At current oil price levels an independent Scotland would be financially non-viable and prices need to roughly double for it to be a likely economic success story. The EU would I think hesitate to welcome a nation whose economy could go from small profit to large debt within a few months due to factors completely out of it's control.
Northern Ireland's possible merger with Eire to form a united Ireland is more likely I think, and long term I believe that would on balance be a good thing. Should that not happen, issues may arise from the reestablishing of a hard border between Eire and the north but I haven't enough up to date knowledge to say if an increase of paramilitary activity might ensue as a result.
The UK will in all probability remain mostly unchanged, at least for the next few years. Complications will ensue from this decision unfortunately, but the likelihood of bad outcomes is not inevitable. People aren't going to be sent home in droves, nor is anyone likely to put up with any increase of unpleasantness on our streets. There is no real, organised effort in the UK promoting exclusion of anyone. You find a few loons online ranting about Jews/Asians/Muslims/WhitePower from their bedrooms, but that's about it.
I don't think there's any tolerance for that kind of thing. Which is not to say the vote won't give some idiot or another the 'courage' to be obnoxious, but the danger of organised nastiness is small I think.
I wonder what the markets will do today MrWitch? I'm guessing eventually they will settle down but when? Do you foresee days ahead of drastic financial losses worldwide? Weeks? Months? I'm totally amazed at how the action of one country among so many has such deep and wide-ranging affects on everyone. I read that the underlying fear is that the EU will ultimately dissolve completely. Would that be a good thing in your opinion? Did the EU never live up to its promise? Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful answer and Happy Monday! I guess we should all strap ourselves in tightly because the roller coaster will be at
full speed for awhile. :(
Those are very difficult questions Rosie, but I'll do my best. :)
Instability in markets will continue for a while, and is rather at the mercy of outside forces. Essentially it will continue until players in the markets think they can no longer make money out of it, or realise the sky wasn't going to fall in after all. My knowledge of markets is very basic though.
It's very damaging for the EU as a whole. Overnight, the EU lost it's (then) second biggest economy but far more damaging to it's future will be the loss of the huge amount of 'soft power' the UK has around the world. Areas that cover diplomacy, defence, intelligence - anything where the UK has 'influence', will be less available to those nations than before. Both the EU and the UK will have slightly smaller, weaker voices as a result of this.
As for whether I think further collapse would be a good thing I have to give a long term, 'yes' to that idea. It would be catastrophic for markets and economies in the short term however and would undoubtedly push the world into another recession.
That would last as long as the (once) member states took to put together a set of trade negotiations, which may not take long at all. Since the EU has evolved over time, there's nothing to say we can't just put the legislation back into an updated framework that mirrors a previous, less political set of agreements. Nobody would be starting from scratch.
The EU has a very mixed history. It had good intentions from the off, but in a way time has caught up with it. It was formed with the express intention of making it financially impossible for European countries to go to war with each other, and surely that was very desirable if it's 1948 and you're standing in the wreckage left by WW2.
But time has changed the pressures for conflict in Europe. It is now so settled that the idea of fighting another war on European soil is unthinkable for European populations. Similarly, over time the geopolitical focus of the individual nations has altered. Empires have been dissolved, new foreign policy adventures are no more. The past is a different country, as they say.
Simply put, to a great extent it has done it's job of ensuring peace in Europe, though for all the high ideals it made a complete pigs breakfast of Yugoslavia in the 1990s. That aside it's been a success - mostly. But with the success have come a raft of unpopular regulation that impacts member states in a huge variety of different ways. By no means is this all bad either, but it's difficult for a nation to run itself if it has it's hands tied by regulation it didn't, as an independent nation, directly vote for.
When the UK had it's first referendum with regard to EEC (as it was then) membership, the public were told it was an economic union. They voted to join. Under the UK 30 year rule (for sensitive or secret government papers) documents have been made public which show this to be either a direct lie or an appalling piece of incompetence (I'm being generous here - it was a huge lie).
People in the UK are very favourable to the idea of an economic union, but, as with large numbers in all populations across Europe, are not a fan of political union. For many, me included, that's a no-go. Not that it's a bad thing in every case, but there are things that individual nations need to be able to do differently. One size does not fit all.
The EU's move towards political union neglects to reflect this. The individual economies and cultures are so divergent, so complex and so often dependant on government aid of one sort or another that only in the most fevered of fevered economists dreams could this be seen as viable unless the prospect of social unrest is ignored.
