Are Muslim HONOR KILLINGS a fable told to discredit Islam? Is there no such thing? Have NO Muslim men murdered women for having engaged in an affair or being raped?

There is such a thing Rosie.  I've spoken about it (though not in detail) on here a couple of times.  It's complex and I'm not at my best, so I may wander a bit.

What is incorrect (and which happens repeatedly) is to put honour violence together with Islam and claim cause and effect.  There is an association, but it's not a direct one.

A common theme among detractors of Islam is a necessary assumption that all people must think like us, hold the same values as us, be brought up the same as us and hold similar moral standpoints to us.  Of course it's easier to think like this (while it's actually an example of not thinking at all) but it immediately makes any discussion worthless.  It's not always deliberate - many people have such a restricted world view that they don't realise the complexity of human societies and, in their ignorance, make what some would see as 'natural' assumptions.

Anyway, enough blather.  Honour violence is an ancient practice and evidence can be found throughout history.  It stems from a culture that the west has been mostly rid of for a little while, but we had our time in the sun.  

The western addiction to duelling (still happening many years after it was made illegal) is a form of honour violence centered on the idea of male honour.  In ancient Rome, society was based on the idea of pater famillias, 'father of the family' whose responsibility was the honour of the family name and who could kill female relations to preserve it - it actually appears in written Roman law.

I could run through a long list of these historical examples, but will stop here.  There are many differences between 'types' of honour violence, but one thing that runs right through such examples is patriarchy, and herein is the foundation for these actions.  Patriarchy implies rule, and that implies law.  In more basic patriarchal societies it is all important to preserve standing within a community and that usually implies conformity.  Failure to do this will bring social and economic consequences which could extend for generations, to the ruination of the family group.  It is important to realise that this is generally viewed as 'normal', especially among older adults and it has been this way not for a couple of centuries, but always.

So what we have is aspects of cultures which still revolve around ideas which in the west are out of date.  Given modern travel and media, a clash of cultures is inevitable.  So occasionally we will observe immigrants living in the west acting as if they still lived in the culture that produced them - surely a prime example of how powerful, insidious and indelible culture can be.

While it may seem quite likely that the culture that produces them is what might be termed 'Islamic' it is also true to say that other religions are available.  Some parts of the world that are mostly Hindu still have huge issues with honour violence and again, it's not absolutely a religious command but instead is a hold-over from an earlier time, in that case closely involving the caste system.  The argument of the anti-Islamic is that Islam creates this nastiness, but that is to wilfully ignore a vast expanse of history and current events.

Ultimately, it all comes down to ownership, honour and shame.  People are 'owned' in some cultures and have been in the past in our own.  Think of the 'traditional' Christian marriage service wording; 'Love, Honour and Obey'.  In a patriarchy only males can be social superiors, so we have the automatic cultural and social repression of the female.  In many cultures that followed and that still follow a code of honour violence, the virtue of an individual is all important.  While males could establish virtue dependant on societal norms of the time (warfare, animals owned, size of estate, etc) women were in the unique position of being the 'holder' of the male honour.  In this way, conformity is made a requirement for females to be respected and valued, but also makes females a direct threat, in that a rebellious decision can wreck the work of generations. 

In other words, the idiocy of patriarchy, as with all other absolutist belief systems, is inevitably to severely limit a large proportion of the population (in this case, half) in order to preserve another group (in this case, the other half).

Yes, there IS such a thing as Honor Killings in some Islamic regions.

Did you ever hear of a Shotgun Wedding? that too is something real.

In the Bible you can read the commandment about how, it a virgin is raped, she must marry the guy who raped her.

Human cultures gets up to some very weird 'solutions' ;-))

I appreciate the time you invested in replying so thoughtfully to my question as well as the information you provided. Here's the thing. If it's about honor why not murder the rapist? If it's a consensual affair between two adults how do the men have anything to do with the  honor of the two people involved?  A duel is between the insulter and the insultee or  someone about whom the insultee cares a great deal. If someone insults your wife you duel to save HER honor not yours. You don't murder her. So while I understand that cultures vary and that there are some solid reasons to challenge someone who impugns your honor or the honor of a loved one I shall never understand relatives of a woman murdering her by whatever means to salvage THEIR honor. That is absurd. if she is raped she a VICTIM and should  be protected not attacked. If she is a consulting adult it has nothing to do with anyone else. It is HER honor that is damaged not theirs. So there is nothing remotely reasonable/rational/logical/just/fair that would give them any right to murder other than their own mental/emotional/spiritual defects. Just my opinion MrWitch.  Thank you again my friend! :)

It's about 'standing' Rosie.  How we are perceived by those we live among.  The first example you cite, which seem to involve the killing of a rape victim, is not 'standard' honour violence as far as I'm aware.  I would suspect more personal biases to be at work or perhaps a warping of an honour code.  Unfortunately, this is such a complex subject that generalities are unavoidable. 

The majority of honour killings take place because of a refusal to follow unwritten law and do not involve anything we in the west would recognise as a crime.  A sister or daughter insists on marrying someone from the wrong caste, or from a family that is undesirable in some other way.  In doing so, a direct challenge to the patriarchal authority is issued.  Some people will be deeply enough embedded in their culture to act on this defiance violently.  That's all it is and has nothing specifically to do with any religion at all.

You point out something that I think is relevant.  You mention 'salvage THEIR honour' and while this is correct it goes a little further than that.  It may seem odd to us now, but in a patriarchal system, patriarchy is the law - written or unwritten.  So when a man commits violence against an individual according to 'cultural norms', they are not just doing it for themselves, but for (bizarre as it may seem) for their wider family honour and the survival of that family in an established system.  

It's easy to see how something like this may come to be 'accepted' if, on marrying your only daughter to the 'wrong' person (because she loves him so), you find nobody is interested in trading with you very much from then on, none of your friends will talk to you at the market, your sons are now viewed as somehow 'suspect' and their chances of 'good' marriages reduce.  We do not see the reason for these decisions because we don't live in that sort of society, but it's a simple truth: there are parts of the world where decisions have many more connotations, complications and consequences beyond what we may associate with them here.

We've grown used to having wider society not really care what we do, or with whom, but it's not so long ago that people (usually the lower classes) in towns and cities here washed their steps religiously (please excuse the mixed message - I couldn't resist!) because their neighbours friends, family and community would frown on them for not doing so.  Something as simple as that, combined with a bit of gossip, could make your life more complicated and difficult.  Honour violence, hugely scaled up of course, is something similar.  

To finish, I would note that 'cultural hangover' of this type found among migrants is mostly gone by the second generation.  Once the people are removed from a life where it is 'normal' the chances of it occurring reduce hugely.

MW, I've read every word in both your posts. You seem, to me, to have a very good grasp of the subject. It's as if you've come from that background yourself or have been affected by it. Many express frustration, anger or even hatred of whole communities because they go by simple thoughtless stereotypes. I suspect some will still fail to understand and will hold onto their stereotypes even after your detailed and very well presented explanation.

Of course they exist.  It is not a popular practice, but it does exist.   People who behave this way are mental midgets still living in the stone age.