He lied by omitting pertinent information. A lie of OMISSION.
ARI MELBER: Good evening, Chuck. Thank you.
We begin with breaking news. Bombshell reports tonight that Bob Mueller`s
boss talked about wiretapping President Trump or even ousting the president
of the United States through the 25th Amendment of the Constitution. And
that`s, of course, the way that you remove a president who is deemed unable
to handle the job. You need the support of the Cabinet and the Congress.
If you`re hearing these words, if they are sinking in, then you know
already this is not some Friday night news dump. This is a Friday night
explosion. But these claims and these stories tonight are also hotly
contested. They may portend an irreversible escalation in the handling of
the Mueller probe itself and whether President Trump will seize on this
report which is in “The New York Times” to pursue his own version of a
Saturday night massacre.
So given this year`s scale of this, we`re going to start our broadcast here
on THE BEAT a little differently tonight. We`re going to begin with the
context for these explosive leaks and some of the skepticism about them.
Then I`m going to share with you exactly what we know, both “The New York
Times” report and some conflicting accounts from some other very high-level
sources and then we`ll turn to our experts.
So first, there`s the context here. The heat on Donald Trump right now has
never been hotter with the DOJ flipping his former campaign chair and his
long-time personal lawyer. In fact, it`s only the past days and weeks that
the news leaked that both men are not only guilty but are talking to Bob
Mueller. So amidst that heat that now sources inside and outside the DOJ
say, “It`s no surprise that we`re seeing fresh attacks on the DOJ
leadership maybe giving everything they`ve got.”
The “NYT” report focuses on a few comments that were made in a meeting that
these sources say were either sarcastic jokes or were never acted on. And
note how odd it is that conversations from well over a year ago would be
leaking out right now, at the boiling point of cooperation in this Russia
probe. And before I read you the “Times” account, I want you to know what
else we`re learning.
Tonight, the top Senate Democrat Schumer is warning against this entire
story, against using these leaks as a pretext for Donald Trump to do what
many think he`s wanted to do for a long time which is kneecap the Bob
Mueller probe by firing Bob Mueller`s boss Rod Rosenstein. So that`s the
context, that`s the congressional fallout at this hour.
Now let me show you exactly what “The New York Times” is reporting that
Mueller`s boss, Rod Rosenstein was basically aghast at how Trump was
operating after firing James Comey and that he secretly suggested recording
Trump and discussed even the 25th Amendment. This idea of using a wire to
“secretly tape” the president when he visited the White House or of others
doing so. Since the key question at the time was whether Donald Trump
fired James Comey to stop the Russia probe and whether the other officials
should try to tape him during interviews over who would replace Comey.
Now the article reports that Rosenstein got into the mechanics of it noting
White House officials never checked his phone when he arrived for those
meetings and then there is the passage that is by far the most shocking
that is certainly rattling the internet, the claim that Rod Rosenstein
thought he might get Jeff Sessions and John Kelly who was then head of DHS
to use the 25th Amendment to remove Trump.
Now the article includes Rosenstein denying this entire story as,
“factually incorrect and includes another DOJ official saying that someone
at the meeting thought “The Times” was basically misconstruing the
reference to a wire and it was actually made “Sarcastically.” Now that is
what “The New York Times” reports. This story obviously appears quite
helpful to Donald Trump`s view of a deep state justice department out to
get him.
And “The Times” is not claiming its reporting is based on people who
actually heard Rosenstein say any of those things. Let me point you to
investigative journalist Marci Wheeler noting tonight not a single one of
these people, “The Times” quote is actually a witness to the episodes.
None of them had even read the memos memorializing the events directly, but
have instead simply been briefed secondhand.
And then there are the other sources and because this is so important
because this could potentially change everything, let`s go through it in
detail. Because late today, DOJ officials are telling “NBC News” the
meeting in question in May was at a secured facility, it was a week after
Trump fired Comey as FBI director and the day before Rosenstein made that
big move to appoint Mueller.
And this official tells us, “Seven people were there. Rosenstein, McCabe
who was then acting as Comey`s replacement, an FBI lawyer Lisa Page and
four career DOJ officials including Scott Schools. And this is important
because he`s the career official who would later sign off on the decision
to fire McCabe himself. “Rosenstein and McCabe were arguing and at one
point, Rosenstein asked, `Well, what do you want me to to do, Andy, wear a
wire?` Two DOJ officials say the remark was made sarcastically,” according
to what this official tells “NBC”.
As for raising the issue of invoking the 25th Amendment, the senior DOJ
official says there`s a brief reference to it in a note about the meeting
that was written again by McCabe. “Dag”, that would be Rosenstein, “raises
25th Amendment” and, “Official says the notes about the same meeting taken
by Lisa Page don`t reference it at all and that Rosenstein didn`t raise it.
This person telling “NBC” the notion that he would want to talk about
discussing this with Kelly makes no sense. He didn`t even know Kelly then.
Now, I can tell you the public timeline does back that up. Rosenstein who
have been in the post three weeks, Kelly was not a big player in the Trump
White House at the time. He didn`t become chief of staff until later in
July.
Now as a DOJ lawyer, Rosenstein would know it also takes a lot more than
just some cabinet members to really use the 25th Amendment. You need a
super majority in Congress but the Republicans, of course, are in charge
there. Now this story is contested by the people involved. There is no
doubt about one thing and why it is such a big story tonight.
This now lives in the white-hot center of the controversy over what Trump
is going to do about a Russia probe that is heading for the White House.
Donald Trump`s son is seizing on the report saying it proves that DOJ`s top
guys will do anything in their power to undermine Donald Trump. Meanwhile,
journalist Gabriel Sherman who wrote a book on “Fox News” is reporting
tonight that the man you see there, former Fox Executive Bill Shine, who
now runs White House Communications for Trump is preparing a media plan to
“Build public support for Trump to fire Rosenstein.” And here is a new
call from “Fox” Anchor Laura Ingram calling for Trump to do just that.
So let`s get to our experts now that we have laid out the multiple
dimensions of this story. Kim Wehle is a law professor at the University
of Baltimore. She was a federal prosecutor who worked directly with Rod
Rosenstein. Nick Ackerman has much experience as a former Watergate
special prosecutor. And part of the reporting I mentioned, “NBC`s”
intelligence and national security journalist Ken Dilanian is here for what
he knows about it.
Kim, I begin with you. When you read “The New York Times” version
secondhand of these things said by Rod Rosenstein, do they sound to you
like things that he wanted to actively do, to run a wiretap and remove the
president or do you see them in some other light?
KIM WEHLE, LAW PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE: Well, what I know from
Rod Rosenstein, and I have known him professionally and personally for a
long time, is that he is a man of impeccable integrity. And he`s really
someone who believes in public service and the rule of law. I think the
question here is he doing his job as deputy attorney general and I don`t
think there`s any question that he`s been doing that.
Now, of course, Donald Trump can fire him under Article 2 of the
Constitution. He has the power to do that but that will have repercussions
that are important because as you mentioned, Ari, really what`s in the room
is the fact that Vladimir Putin wants to destroy our democratic process.
He wants to tear people apart and part of that is attacking the career
officials like Rod Rosenstein who are working really hard to uncover what
the Russians did to undermine our electoral process and to get to the
bottom of it.
MELBER: So you see this explicitly as many of Mueller`s allies have seen
it, as Chuck Schumer was saying, as a potential pretext to try to go after
Rosenstein. What do you make though specifically of the notion that he was
talking about wearing a wire? I mean there is a federal process that would
govern that if it were even serious. Your view?
WEHLE: No, I wasn`t there. I mean Rod can from time to time make jokes.
I mean he`s a serious guy, but he also has a sense of humor. And
obviously, there was tremendous amount of pressure in the room. Of course,
I wasn`t there, so there`s no way that I can actually weigh in on what
happened or didn`t happen. But let`s face it, the other elephant in the
room is the fact that whether 25th Amendment was addressed or not.
There are other people within the administration, this anonymous op-ed we
saw on “The New York Times” that have posited that that might be
appropriate and we have seen publicly a president who is in chaos, who is
close to corruption if not corrupt and there is incompetence throughout the
executive branch. And as a constitutional law professor and someone who
was in public service, I`m just deeply, deeply concerned about the
structure of our government because whether you`re Democratic or Republican
when it becomes damaged, it`s damaged for good.
It`s like a car that has the sideswiped. New people can drive that car but
it`s still going to be trashed until someone fixes it. And at this point,
we`re getting more and more broken and it`s very very serious. I really
hope Rosenstein can hang on in these deeply politicized times.
MELBER: And Ken, digging into the people at the meeting, we`ll put it on
the screen because there`s a lot to follow. There`s Rosenstein, McCabe,
Lisa Page, and these four career DOJ officials who are lesser known.
McCabe, of course, was later fired. We know Donald Trump reportedly
started chewing him out the moment he became acting director on the phone
and attacking his wife. Page resigned and, of course, was figured into a
scandal that House Republicans had seized on. So you have Rosenstein left
with those officials.
What does your reporting tell us about the significance of what happened in
that meeting?
KEN DILANIAN, INTELLIGENCE & NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER, NBC NEWS: Well,
it`s so hard to know what to believe, Ari, because as you said, the Justice
Department is pushing back on this vigorously, both to Pete Williams and to
me. Senior Justice Department officials are saying absolutely did not
happen the way “The New York Times” is describing it. They are saying that
Rosenstein`s remark was sarcastic.
But when you talk to people that know Rod, as Kim said, he has a dry wit
and people say that it`s possible that he said something in jest that maybe
Andy McCabe took seriously and wrote it down in a memo as if he really
meant to wear wire. But complicating this picture, Ari, that “The New York
Times” has reported in the last few minutes that there was a second
instance where McCabe and Rosenstein talked about Rod Rosenstein
potentially recording the president or wearing a wire.
And the Justice Department again, our sources are pushing back on that.
And so the only thing I can say is there were four career people in the
room in addition to those named people that you outlined. And so this is a
knowable fact. I mean all these people can be interviewed and we can get
to the bottom of it. We do have Andy McCabe`s contemporaneous memo.
And by the way, some Justice Department officials are suggesting he has an
ax to grind and he was fired by the FBI, but that wasn`t true back in May
2017 when he wrote the memo. He was the deputy director of the FBI. And
so I think his account should be given some credibility but, again, it`s
just a hall of mirrors. We have two diametrically opposing accounts here,
Ari.
MELBER: Nick?
NICK ACKERMAN: Ari, I think this is just part of the overall effort to try
and get rid of the Russian investigation. One piece of the context that
you didn`t mention was that last week Donald Trump came out and was
actually trying to declassify all of the classified information that was
surrounding the Russian investigation at the request of certain Republicans
in the House that are trying to undermine and destroy this investigation.
Just today, it was announced he wasn`t going to do that. Probably because
some other people within the administration have prevailed upon him. So
now we have another Salvo out there trying to undermine this investigation,
undermine Rod Rosenstein. If you look at the two items that are being
talked about, one is the 25th Amendment. That is so cumbersome.
The idea that anybody seriously could think that they could use the 25th
Amendment here where you`ve got to get the majority of the cabinet to then
write to the speaker and to the President Pro Temp of the Senate. And then
on top of that, the president can override that by writing another letter
and then the majority again of the cabinet members would have to write back
to the speaker and Senator Pro Temp and there have to be a two-thirds vote
of both chambers of Congress to remove the president.
That`s not going to happen. This amendment was designed for the situation
where a president is really incapacitated like Woodrow Wilson was.
MELBER: Right. Stay with me, everybody. I want to add to our discussion
founder and editor-at-large of “The Weekly Standard” Bill Kristol who`s
kept an eye on all these things.
Bill, you have been in white houses where everyone parses the leaks. And
this one is quite interesting. I want to read more from “The New York
Times” piece because “The New York Times” has clearly come down on the idea
that Rosenstein said these things and it meant something, not that they are
misconstrued quotes. That`s why their headline says Rosenstein suggests he
secretly records Trump, although the article includes his denial.
And I want to read from the article where it says basically Rosenstein made
his remarks about secretly recording Trump in meetings and conversations
with these officials. Several people described the episodes insisting on
anonymity. These people, they were briefed either on the event or on the
memos. Does that look like a tell to you because we just went through on
the screen all these anonymous people, as well as Rosenstein who`s got the
under record denial that people doing the leaking that “The Times” finds
credible are secondhand having read some other description of it?
BILL KRISTOL, FOUNDER & EDITOR-AT-LARGE, THE WEEKLY STANDARD: That could
well be. And look, at the end of the day, either Rosenstein was rattled
and said a few things that he didn`t follow through on and they were
entirely speculative in terms of the 25th Amendment and he knew he couldn`t
follow through on and he knew he couldn`t follow through on wearing a
wiretap either. Or he was being witty, sort of humor where he was not
quite right but just started to act on it let`s say and whatever.
He didn`t do it, right. He`s been deputy attorney general for a year and a
half now. We can judge his conduct in that job. And I believe almost
every outside observer who doesn`t have an ax to grind thinks his conduct
has been pretty impressive and that he has sustained the rule of law,
defended the Mueller investigation. At times, some critics would say he`s
given a little too much to the president`s directives, but he is part of
the administration after all.
MELBER: But Bill, do you think that what you just said applies that “The
Times” got played?
KRISTOL: Look, it`s possible. I think reporters can get played. They can
also be reporting somewhat accurately, mostly accurately, misunderstanding
things. The McCabe contemporaneous memo is the strongest thing on their
side, I would say. Presumably, the deputy director of the FBI, a man of
some experience, doesn`t put in a memo, something that`s just a throwaway
line, maybe he does or maybe they didn`t know each other well and he
misunderstood Rosenstein. He was just trying to write everything down. I
don`t know.
I very much agree with I think what everyone has basically said which is
this does not give any grounds. I really mean there`s any grounds at all
in terms of any action of Rosenstein that justifies firing him or firing
Sessions or curbing the Mueller investigation. I think it`s important to
reiterate that whatever he might have said in a private meeting that he
didn`t follow through on and there`s no evidence he said again over the
next 16 or however many months he`s been deputy attorney general.
That gives no grounds to Trump to do anything. Now, it does give plenty of
grounds to Donald Trump Jr. and Laura Ingram and everyone to attack
Rosenstein. And let`s just hope it stays at the level of rhetorical
context. I am worried given that Kavanaugh developments, given the
developments that Trump just decides. You know what, it`s just total
chaos.
I`m good at these thunder jaw moments. This is my chance to get rid of
him. It will all just look like chaos and that was a conspiracy. And
we`ll have an election anyway in five, six weeks and maybe the Republicans
will hang on to the Senate. And so I think it`s right to be alarmed that
Trump could take advantage of this moment.
MELBER: Kim?
WEHLE: Well, I think we have to ask ourselves what would actually happen
so then the solicitor general of the United States would be put into place
in an interim basis. That`s Noel Francisco. He`s also a Republican with
pretty conservative credentials, but someone who is highly I think
respected as a lawyer. So presumably, he wouldn`t necessarily, I would
hope, just go ahead and fire Mueller and call off that probe.
In addition, Mueller has been really careful to farm out a lot of these
criminal issues to other parts of the Justice Department, the Southern
District of New York in particular and those people answer to Jeff
Sessions. So I just want people to not be so worried that even if Mr.
Rosenstein is fired that all of a sudden the Mueller investigation is going
to end.
WM BARR . =ABSOLUTE TRASH 