Discussion » Questions » Current Events and News » Please explain how the charges against a certain ex-POTUS are “Trumped up.”

Please explain how the charges against a certain ex-POTUS are “Trumped up.”

Posted - June 10, 2023

Responses


  • 2919
    I really do hope this is the case that gets him convicted.  
      June 10, 2023 6:26 AM MDT
    3

  • 10083
    Let me guess...

    RINOS
    Biden crime family
    Hillary's emails
      June 10, 2023 6:46 AM MDT
    4

  • 32946
    There is already precident set on this case.  Judicial Watch v. National Archives and Records Administration in 2012.

    The rules specifically states: Under the statutory scheme established by the PRA, the decision to segregate personal materials from Presidential records is made by the President, during the President’s term and in his sole discretion,” Jackson wrote in her March 2012 decision, which was never appealed.

    “Since the President is completely entrusted with the management and even the disposal of Presidential records during his time in office, it would be difficult for this Court to conclude that Congress intended that he would have less authority to do what he pleases with what he considers to be his personal records,” she added.
    Jackson wrote that “the President enjoys unconstrained authority to make decisions regarding the disposal of documents: ‘[a]lthough the President must notify the Archivist before disposing of records . . . neither the Archivist nor Congress has the authority to veto the President’s disposal decision.’” 

    If the Archives wants to challenge a decision, that agency and the attorney general can initiate an enforcement mechanism under the law, but it is a civil procedure and has no criminal penalty, she noted.<!--/data/user/0/com.samsung.android.app.notes/files/clipdata/clipdata_bodytext_230611_083626_282.sdocx-->

      June 11, 2023 7:39 AM MDT
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  • 2919

    I'm not sure you understand the definition of "disposal," so let me assist you:  the action or process of 
    throwing away or getting rid of something
    .  Trump did not throw away or get rid of classified and other 
    documents - he stored them in his personal residence.

    "Personal records are defined as:
    “documentary materials or any reasonably segregable portion thereof, of a purely private or nonpublic
    character, which do not relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory,
    or other official or ceremonial duties of the President” and which include “diaries, journals, or other
    personal notes serving as the functional equivalent of a diary or journal which are not prepared or utilized
    for, or circulated or communicated in the course of, transacting Government business,” “private political
    associations” and “materials relating exclusively to the President’s own election to the office of the
    Presidency” [44 U.S.C. § 2201(3)].

    Personal records remain the personal property of the President or the record creator.

    Records created by the President-elect and the transition team are also considered personal records.
    To the extent that these records are received and used after the inauguration by the incoming
    Presidential Administration, they may become Presidential or Federal records. Former Presidents have
    traditionally donated these personal transition records to the National Archives and Records
    Administration for deposit in their Presidential Library. "

    https://www.archives.gov/files/guidance-on-presidential-records-from-the-national-archives-and-records-administration-2020.pdf

    Classified and Top Secret documents are not Trump's personal records.  

    The PRA was amended in 2014, after Jackson's March, 2012 decision, which established several new provisions, one of which establishes public ownership of all Presidential records and defines the term Presidential records.



    https://www.archives.gov/files/guidance-on-presidential-records-from-the-national-archives-and-records-administration-2020.pdf This post was edited by Spunky at June 11, 2023 3:20 PM MDT
      June 11, 2023 9:17 AM MDT
    2

  • 32946
    Courts will sort it out.  This will not result in a Trump conviction.  

    Again Trump was POTUS at the time,  he had the power to declassify whatever he wanted. And the courts have ruled that a President can determine what is and is not personal doctuments.  And the NARA cannot overrule it.   And further that if they challenge the determination there is NOT a criminal penalty. 
      June 11, 2023 9:31 AM MDT
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  • 2919
    Trump was not president in 2012.  Once again, you have not interpreted the PRA properly.  The amendment made all presidential documents part of the public domain. This post was edited by Spunky at June 11, 2023 3:20 PM MDT
      June 11, 2023 10:00 AM MDT
    1

  • 32946
    No where did I claim Trump was POTUS in 2012. The case that set precident for Presidential doctuments was in 2012.  I already posted her clear and concise ruling above.  Rules are the rules and they cannot change simply because the party of the President changes or the establishment does not like the President.
      June 11, 2023 10:19 AM MDT
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  • 2919
    There is a process for declassifying documents and it isn't something that just floats around in Trump's head.  You can't just "think" something classified and it is.  A president can't just decide to classify declassify something and not tell anyone.  If you think that is the case, then you need to do more research. This post was edited by Spunky at June 11, 2023 5:27 PM MDT
      June 11, 2023 2:15 PM MDT
    1

  • 32946
    There is a process for everyone else in government.   President's are different. They have the clearance (and still have that clearance when they leave office) and the power to classify and declassify whatever they want.  When they want and how they want.  The process is for the other people in gov to get get things marked the the way so others can know if who is allowed to view them.
      June 13, 2023 10:35 AM MDT
    0

  • 2919

    You need to fire whomever does your research.

    "Some secrets, such as information related to nuclear weapons, are handled separately under a specific statutory scheme that Congress has adopted under the Atomic Energy Act. Those secrets cannot be automatically declassified by the president alone and require, by law, extensive consultation with executive branch agencies.

    In all cases, however, a formal procedure is required so governmental agencies know with certainty what has been declassified and decisions memorialized. A federal appeals court in a 2020 Freedom of Information Act case, New York Times v. CIA, underscored that point: “Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures,” the court said.

    As the new ABA Legal Fact Check notes, the extent of a president’s legal authority to unilaterally declassify materials — without following formal procedures — has yet to be challenged in court.

    https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2022/10/fact-check-presidential-authority/

    In addition:

    "Former President Donald Trump acknowledged on tape in a 2021 meeting that he had retained “secret” military information that he had not declassified, according to a transcript of the audio recording obtained by CNN.

    As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,” Trump says, according to the transcript."

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/09/politics/trump-tape-didnt-declassify-secret-information/index.html

      June 14, 2023 8:31 AM MDT
    1

  • 32946
    ""As the new ABA Legal Fact Check notes, the extent of a president’s legal authority to unilaterally declassify materials — without following formal procedures — has yet to be challenged in court.".....


    The Clinton case, the Judge has ruled that the President in fact has the power to classify and declassify and no other authority has the power to overrule the President decision.  Case is established precident since 2012. 
      June 17, 2023 6:55 AM MDT
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  • 2919

    "In 2010, the conservative group Judicial Watch sued the National Archives and Records Administration, arguing audio tapes kept by Clinton for interviews he did with historian Taylor Branch during his years in office -- and which he afterward allegedly kept in a sock drawer -- were "presidential records" and should be made available to the public.

    U.S. District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson dismissed the case, and Trump and his allies have taken to quoting different parts of her opinion in their defense.

    The Presidential Records Act does contain an exception for personal records, according to Baron, including items such as "diaries, journals, and other personal notes that were never used in the transaction of government business."

    "President Trump had the right to keep those types of records. But the argument being made by some that he had some kind of absolute authority while president to declare classified records or other official records about government business as his personal records is absurd in its face," he said. "It is also contrary to law. The decision by Judge Jackson cited prior precedent from the D.C. Circuit that stands for the opposite proposition."

    That citation included in Jackson's opinion reads, in part, that the Presidential Records Act "does not bestow on the president the power to assert sweeping authority over whatever materials he chooses to designate as presidential records without any possibility of judicial review."

    "Judge Jackson went on to speculate about the level of deference to be afforded a president making a categorical decision about whether records of his were personal, but she never ruled on that issue," Baron said. "Instead, the case was dismissed on the grounds that plaintiff had no standing to compel the Archivist to seize materials not in the government’s possession."

    https://news.yahoo.com/trump-makes-legal-claims-classified-225100248.html?

    In any event, whether documents are of a personal nature is to be decided while the president is still in office.  

      June 17, 2023 7:18 AM MDT
    1

  • 3907
    Hello again, my:

    Nahhh...

    It’s striking, and legally notable, that the indictment never mentions the Presidential Records Act (PRA) that allows a President access to documents, both classified and unclassified, once he leaves office. It allows for good-faith negotiation with the National Archives. Yet the indictment assumes that Mr. Trump had no right to take any classified documents.

    This doesn’t fit the spirit or letter of the PRA, which was written by Congress to recognize that such documents had previously been the property of former Presidents. If the Espionage Act means Presidents can’t retain any classified documents, then the PRA is all but meaningless. This will be part of Mr. Trump’s defense.

    excon
      June 11, 2023 12:14 PM MDT
    1

  • 32946
    Again, the DA will have to prove Trump did not declassify the docts.  
    The DA has even said he has no smoking gun. This is about trying to force Trump to drop out. It will not work and will solidify his supporters. I me, I will not vote for anyone else for Pres in 2024. Even if he drops out.  This has clinched the nomination. 
      June 11, 2023 2:02 PM MDT
    0

  • 10083
    Why would Trump say on tape that he hadn't declassified a document?

    This post was edited by Jane S at June 14, 2023 10:00 AM MDT
      June 11, 2023 2:44 PM MDT
    2

  • 13261
    But Trump is no longer president, so he doesn’t have the power to declassify anything.

    And why do Republicans want to prosecute Hillary for her emails, but not prosecute Trump for this? She shouldn’t get away with it but he should? Aren’t they the party of law and order?
      June 13, 2023 2:52 PM MDT
    1

  • 32946
    He had the power at the time he took the copies of the docts. He has every right to have them and keep them according to the PRA and the prior court decision. He still has the clearance.  
    Hillary was not prosecuted. 

    We expect a fair justice system....we have a 2-tiered system.  
      June 13, 2023 5:25 PM MDT
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  • 13261
    If you want a fair justice system, why do you want Hillary prosecuted and not Trump?
      June 13, 2023 5:29 PM MDT
    1

  • 32946
    They did not charge Hillary, they have not charged Biden (classified docts from time as a Senator)....why have not been charged? Niether Hillary nor Sen/VP Biden had the right to those docts.  They were not the President. 

    President's have the rights to their doctuments.   These are copies of doctuments that were produced for him, as President he has the right to them under the PRA. 
      June 14, 2023 6:25 AM MDT
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  • 10083
    I think you are misunderstanding the difference between presidential records and government documents. Government documents belong to the government regardless of classification status. Not every piece of paper that crosses the president's desk belongs to him or can be kept by him. Trump took government records - the decision you are referencing is not applicable. 
      June 13, 2023 8:33 AM MDT
    2

  • 3907
    Hello Stu:

    It doesn't matter how damning the charges are...  When you got a MAGA judge, and a courtroom where cameras and recording devises are excluded, he's gonna walk. 

    Good-bye sweet country, good-bye.

    excon This post was edited by excon at June 14, 2023 10:01 AM MDT
      June 14, 2023 8:49 AM MDT
    1

  • 16336
    Whether or not His Royal Orangeness WANTED to declassify the documents cannot be determined. He absolutely didn't actually do it, there are procedures which must be followed and Trump followed none of them. He didn't even mark them as having been declassified.
    The difference between Trump and Biden is that Biden admitted his error, cooperated with law enforcement and didn't try to deny anything. The paucity of content is also consistent with an honest mistake. Trump has done none of this, denied everything and had enough classified to fill a library with, none of it stored securely.
      June 15, 2023 4:58 AM MDT
    1

  • 32946
    Classified or not he has the right to have them under the PRA. The procedures are for lesser offices....a President does not have to follow other's procedures.  He/she can declassify something by simply saying the information to the public or someone who does not have the clearance.   The President has the ultimate authority over classification and no other offical has the authority to overrule the President.  
    That would be a very small library....the most he has be claimed to have is 700 pages of "classified" doctuments. 
      June 15, 2023 1:19 PM MDT
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  • 16336
    Hi Stu
    Three. He hasn't actually committed any terrorist attacks, just failed to do anything about domestic ones. Jan 6 was an attempted insurrection/failed bloodless coup d'etat, not actually a terror act.
    Espionage is also difficult to prove, although some of the classified material in his possession would have been very valuable to foreign agents and thus could have been used by His Royal Orangeness for the purposes of blackmail - but there's no evidence that this actually happened.
    Criminal activity, corruption and white collar crimes are self-evident.
      June 18, 2023 1:54 AM MDT
    0