Active Now

ENG / LLVF - formerly of AB
Discussion » Questions » Religion and Spirituality » Is there no way to escape the Jehovah Witness's?

Is there no way to escape the Jehovah Witness's?

Posted - October 5, 2017

Responses


  • 5614
    They may err but I wish to escape them NOT.
      October 5, 2017 9:06 PM MDT
    5

  • 32664
    Most are very nice people.  
      October 5, 2017 9:08 PM MDT
    4

  • 46117
    They don't bother me ever. There is nothing to escape from.  I hear they are persecuted in Russia.  Maybe they are the ones who want to escape.
      October 5, 2017 11:40 PM MDT
    4

  • 591
     
     
    This would appear to be the Russian side of it written by Alexey Aksyonenko,an American living in Moscow since 2003

    I’m pretty far removed from all kinds of religious conflict in general, and Jehova’s Witnesses (JW) in particular, but I do live in Russia, so I took it upon myself to do some research on the web, both Russian and Western sources. Here’s the picture that unfolds.

    1) The movement is not considered a religion in Russia, but a sect. And not only in Russia, by the way. Sects do not enjoy the legal benefits of religious organizations.

    2)Printed materials being disseminated by JW in Russia conflict with Russian laws. Specifically — the anti-extremism laws. For better or for worse, the law of the land is the law, and it must be abided by, whether or not you are religious and regardless of what you preach. If you break the law expect consequences.

    3)JW advocate their beliefs as the only truth, and often go as far as calling other religions “false”. That, in itself, is not an example of religious tolerance and, being intolerant themselves, JW cannot expect to be treated differently from the way they treat others.

    4) JW believe in actively converting others to their faith, including door-to-door canvassing. While it may be done with the best intentions, as they see it, it is not only annoying and disruptive — it constitutes an invasion of privacy. Besides, we all know what road is paved with the best intentions.

    5) JW seem to advocate the cessation of all contact with non-adepts, regardless of family and social affiliation. I do not know how true this is, perhaps (dogmatically), they do not, but many adepts interpret the teachings in this manner and are not corrected (or are encouraged) in it. This, in many cases, leads to destruction of families and inability of the adepts to fit in socially.

    6)JW advocate the adepts’ transferring their worldly possessions to the custody of the church. With documented cases of mass-printed materials providing specific instructions on how to do so. This in itself is criminal.

    I do not claim to be an expert on JW dogma, perhaps it started out differently, perhaps it IS different elsewhere, but this is the situation unfolding specifically in Russia. As long as it remains so, I will agree with the courts decision to ban them.

    Despite being predominantly Christian Orthodox, Russia is home to many different religions, none of which are under the threat of being banned. Instead of screaming “government oppression”, perhaps Jehova’s Witnesses need to re-evaluate their own actions here.

      October 6, 2017 1:03 AM MDT
    0

  • 2657
    One persons biased understanding er em misunderstanding? Just like the courts, he doesn't seem to mind authorities planting evidence in Kingdom Halls so they could confiscate them, or did he not really care to do that much research? Either he isn't aware of what's going on or it doesn't bother him enough to mention that crimes against JW's have multiplied since the ban, arson, firing, beatings, etc.

    What do you think of 3), don't you consider all religions to be false? Also, what do you think of that double standard since Russian Orthodox considers JW's do be false rather than true?

    Some videos showing Russian authorities planting banned materials in Kingdom halls and/or private homes: 
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=russia+planting+evidence+Jehovah

    Here's one of the Government ran TV stations propaganda video's that has videos of people that are not JW's.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldybL1foBE0&list=PLMjLUWUCHyVm1u-3LnIsGKi49HIdBGZvQ

    Russian TV counterfeit a video to promote ban on Jehovah's Witnesses


    https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/russia/experts-on-threat-of-ban-jehovahs-witnesses/

    On Video: Experts React to Threat of Ban on Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia

    n

    Dr. Massimo Introvigne“The only relationship between Jehovah’s Witnesses and violence is that they have been victims of violence.”

    Sociologist and Former Representative of the OSCE on Combating Racism, Xenophobia, Discrimination

    n

    Vladimir Vasilyevich Ryakhovskiy: “It has always started with Jehovah’s Witnesses and then spread to everyone else.”

    Member of the Presidential Council for Civil Society and Human Rights

    n

    Dr. Hubert Seiwert‘All accusations against JehovahËŠs Witnesses presented at the many court hearings were unfounded.’

    Professor at the Institute of Religious Studies at the University of Leipzig


    n
    EDIT:
    Funny thing about Russia, when not influenced by the Orthodox Church their puppet corrupt officials, they forget that JW's are supposed to be sub-human extremist terrorist.

    https://www.newsweek.com/jehovahs-witnesses-russia-ban-award-626376

    JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES IN RUSSIA RECEIVE PARENTING AWARDS FROM PUTIN, SPARKING HOPE ON BAN APPEAL

    BY JASON LE MIERE ON 6/15/17 AT 5:06 PM

    n
    https://jw-russia.org/news/17082917-209.html

    "The most unusual and rare mother is awarded"

    August 29, 2017
    This post was edited by texasescimo at October 6, 2017 9:00 AM MDT
      October 6, 2017 3:34 AM MDT
    3

  • 591
    As you correctly point out I think all religions are false, I merely pointed out the views of an American who is living in Russia in reply to Shar to the Rona so if you have any problems with what  Alexey Aksyonenko stated then I suggest you take it up with him.

    However I did find the video of 'planted evidence' very disturbing, I am not saying it was faked but it would actually be a very easy scenario to stage as none of the police or their vehicles were identifiable. Also I find it hard to believe that the JW's routinely search there own kingdom hall for 'banned literature'. It also does not help that the video is not in chronological order, in that they are seen to plant the 'evidence' before they even go upstairs to where the 'evidence' was later found and the police who are seen unmasked after 8am (who can be recognized) finding the 'evidence' are in color, yet it appears to be taken from the same security camera. Another thing I do not understand is what motive the government would have for framing the JW. I suggest that you look at the timings on the 'security camera' footage and the display of the timings on what should be the same 'security camera', that and the fact it goes from monochrome to color.  Food for thought!

    Your link from RT starts showing various cults and loony groups at the point when the interviewee starts talking about various cults and groups within Russia, no one claims that they are JW's and again these loony tunes are not under threat, so that brings me back to motive.

    The rest of your links are nothing more than opinions and as they are all from JW.org they cannot be taken as unbiased.
      October 6, 2017 4:52 AM MDT
    0

  • 2657
    What's the point of playing videos that have nothing whatsoever to do with JW's in an interview that is supposed to be about JW's? They didn't say that any of the videos were or were not JW's but for most Russian Orthodox that have never been to a Kingdom Hall, they likely think that the video's have something to do with the main subject of the interview.

    Which video did you watch as the link to youtube had several.

    Quote: "The rest of your links are nothing more than opinions and as they are all from JW.org they cannot be taken as unbiased."
    Not very open minded of you. The JW link gave the sources and they are not JW's nor do they agree with JW doctrines. Some even belong to another religion. If the comments by O-uknow, my2cents, and Shar to the Rona were included in the JW link I suppose you would consider them to be bias as well because they don't find JW's to be a dangerous extremist cult? None of them are JW's or agree with JW doctrines but are a bit more tolerant and reasonable.


    EDIT: 
    Quote: [Also I find it hard to believe that the JW's routinely search there own kingdom hall for 'banned literature'....... Another thing I do not understand is what motive the government would have for framing the JW. ]
    They were routinely searching their Kingdom Halls as the authorities planting evidence in Kingdom Halls and individual houses is not an isolated instance. The motive of the government would be two-fold. Get rid of JWs to appease their Orthodox Church and have a legal means to confiscate and liquidate the Kingdom Halls themselves as well as all assets. As any sincere person that has kept up with the case can see, that is exactly what the result has been. 


     The police admit this guy was one of their own. They say he was just carrying in the banned book so he could identify other banned literature. They have a list and pictures of our banned literature. The Bible teach book he was carrying is not the only item banned. How does that help and why does he need that book to identify 'My Book of Bible Stories'?

                                                                                                                                           -                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Is this following video the one you are trying to pick apart in complaining about monochrome vs color? At 0:52 it is 7:36 and the lights are off while they are placing evidence. At 1:21 it is 8:09 and the lights are on while they are finding the evidence they just placed.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzmJ4T_f8WQ


    Edit again: Really not healthy to go around suspecting people just because they don't believe the same way you do or because you have heard bad things about them. 
    Also wouldn't be a bad idea to find out from JW's what they really believe. If I wan't to know what some group believes or what their policies are, I would go to the source.
    Since you are so convinced of the evil of JW's and that they cannot be trusted, here is a link telling you who one of the non-JW non-biased people that you refused to look at on jw.org:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYC30jeEjGc:
    Heiner Bielefeldt “If Jehovah’s Witnesses are extremist, I think we all are.”


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiner_
    BielefeldtHeiner Bielefeldt (April 12, 1958) is a German philosopher, historian and Catholic theologian. He is Professor of Human Rights and Human Rights Policy at the University of Erlangen. In 2010, he was appointed United Nations Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or Belief.[1] 



    n










    This post was edited by texasescimo at October 6, 2017 9:19 AM MDT
      October 6, 2017 5:25 AM MDT
    2

  • 591
    I really do not understand why it is that you cannot understand what it is that I actually say, rather than what you think I say. You believe I did not look at 'the non-JW non-biased people that you refused to look at on jw.org' please explain to me how you think I could write (correctly) 'your links are nothing more than opinions' and tell you where the came from if I had indeed refused to look at them?
    So now we have you claiming that a Catholic theologian who's job is working for the UN (another body you claim to have nothing to do with, even when they are trying to save your ass) as a special reporter on freedom of religion or belief to be unbiased and you have the audacity to tell me to 'get real'

    As I said in another post hypocrisy is a well known trait among religions and yours is showing again when you say 'Really not healthy to go around suspecting people just because they don't believe the same way you do or because you have heard bad things about them' in the very same comment that you state without any proof 'The motive of the government would be two-fold. Get rid of JWs to appease their Orthodox Church and have a legal means to confiscate and liquidate the Kingdom Halls themselves as well as all assets'. Now you see I have a few problems with that suspicion of yours, the first being that the vast majority of religious folks believe Russia to be an atheist country who persecutes religions but here you now are telling me that it is a religion that is telling the government what to do, sorry but it cannot be both ways, second being, your cult must have one hell of a lot of property/assets (well I did say they were a for profit cult) in Russia to make it worth time for the government to go to such lengths and third, why only pick on the JW?

      October 6, 2017 4:10 PM MDT
    0

  • 2657
    Quote: [I really do not understand why it is that you cannot understand what it is that I actually say, rather than what you think I say. You believe I did not look at 'the non-JW non-biased people that you refused to look at on jw.org' please explain to me how you think I could write (correctly) 'your links are nothing more than opinions' and tell you where the came from if I had indeed refused to look at them?
    So now we have you claiming that a Catholic theologian who's job is working for the UN (another body you claim to have nothing to do with, even when they are trying to save your ass) as a special reporter on freedom of religion or belief to be unbiased and you have the audacity to tell me to 'get real']

    Sorry, I was under the impression that since you knew the link was from jw.org and that you assumed that was an illegitimate source of biased people when in fact they are people that have no ties to JW's and no reason to be overly fond of JW's that your unreasonable response of: "The rest of your links are nothing more than opinions and as they are all from JW.org they cannot be taken as unbiased." made me think that you didn't click on the links therein. 
     Apparently, unlike you, I don't consider every individual that believes different than myself as a biased liar. I don't believe that the UN is going to be the ultimate savior of mankind or bring about complete peace to the world as some do but I don't believe every individual person that supports it are evil liars.
    Obviously you are aware that JW's are not overly supportive of the UN or the Catholic Church as they are likely aware of as well. How is it that you think that a 'Catholic theologian who's job is working for the UN' is going to be biased for JW's, especially when Catholics share most of their doctrines with Putin's Russian Orthodox Church? Or is it just that you think that anyone that is for freedom of religion, conscience, and thought has to be biased to recognize when something is obviously wrong?


    Quote: [Now you see I have a few problems with thatsuspicion of yours, the first being that the vast majority of religious folks believe Russia to be an atheist country who persecutes religions but here you now are telling me that it is a religion that is telling the government what to do, sorry but it cannot be both ways]

    What does that have to do with anything I said? The Atheistic Soviet Union did suppress religion. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Federation of Russia under Putin returned all previously confiscated assets and then some, back to the Russian Orthodox Church.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/putins-holy-war/

    The first person to be charged was 38-year-old Viktor Krasnov from Stavropol in southern Russia, who claimed “there is no God” in a heated online dispute with two Russian Orthodox Christians in October 2014. “If I say that the collection of Jewish fairytales entitled the Bible is complete bullshit, then that is that. At least for me,” Krasnov also wrote.

    During the first two decades of the Soviet era, some 200,000 members of the clergy were murdered, while millions of other Christians were persecuted for their faith.

    In March 2016, Krasnov’s apartment was raided by police. A judge ordered a month-long examination in a psychiatric ward to determine if he was fit to stand trial. He was ultimately deemed fit to stand — despite the judge’s assertion that “no one in their right mind would write anything against Orthodox Christianity and the Russian Orthodox Church” — and his trial is ongoing.

    The landmark case represented a startling turnaround in Russia’s history.

    During the first two decades of the Soviet era, some 200,000 members of the clergy were murdered, while millions of other Christians were persecuted for their faith, according to a 1995 Kremlin committee report. Although a limited Orthodox Christian revival was permitted by Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin during World War II, anti-religion propaganda and selected discrimination against believers continued up until the mid-1980s.


    Quote: [ why only pick on the JW?]

    Don't think it is only JW's they are messing with, but if I am not mistaken, some of the others actually have ties to extremist terrorist activities.
    JW's are known for going house to house helping people to learn what the Bible really says. In some Countries they have been the fastest growing religion. To religions that are power hungry or other reasons, losing members to JW's is troublesome.


    In a nutshell, you pretty much are saying that everyone that doesn't agree with you, the Russian Government, and the Russian Orthodox Church on this case are biased, yes?
      October 6, 2017 4:55 PM MDT
    1

  • 591
    Once again you are putting your spin on to what I say, I said that I did not think a person who's job it is to support freedom of religion could be considered unbiased as he gets paid to support freedom for all religions, that is exactly what he is paid to do and say. 

    Once again you are attempting to tell me what I am saying 'In a nutshell, you pretty much are saying that everyone that doesn't agree with you, the Russian Government, and the Russian Orthodox Church on this case are biased, yes? Please point out where I have said that the Russian government, the Russian church or anyone who disagrees with me are biased, seems to me that you are projecting your thoughts into my statements.
      October 6, 2017 5:33 PM MDT
    0

  • 2657
    You've defended the actions of the Russian government and pretty much every video I showed you that shows them planting evidence and the government ran news station talking about JW's while at the same time showing clips of unidentified people doing strange things giving the impression that they are JW's and you attacked the validity of everyone that denounced the actions of the Russian Government in the unjust persecution of JW's in Russia.
      October 6, 2017 5:42 PM MDT
    1

  • 591
    Ps. Why do you say biased as in, 'One persons biased understanding er em misunderstanding' when the guy clearly states 'I’m pretty far removed from all kinds of religious conflict in general, and Jehova’s Witnesses (JW) in particular'?
      October 6, 2017 4:57 AM MDT
    0

  • 2657
    You expect the guy to say he is biased? His following comments are very telling. JW's were a legal recognized religion in Russia prior to their new extremist laws and misapplication of that law leading to revoking of that legal status. 

    If you think Russia and the Orthodox Church are all above board on their dealings in freedoms and human rights, you are very gullible. You may like the fact that at the present time, JW's are under ban in Russia as they have been in many other Countries, but your freedoms to express disdain for all religion would not be tolerated their, unless you made a disclaimer excluding the Orthodox Church from your taunts.

    This post was edited by texasescimo at October 6, 2017 10:59 PM MDT
      October 6, 2017 5:32 AM MDT
    2

  • 591
    'His following comments are very telling. JW's were a legal recognized religion in Russia prior to their new extremist laws and misapplication of that law leading to revoking of that legal status', exactly where did you get that comment from it certainly was not from what I posted?. 

    I watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ipYfBXsNV4 as your link did not specify which video you were talking about, it only lead to a page of results.

    Have I said that I have found JW's to be a dangerous extremist cult? A cult yes, a cult that harms ex members, a cult that hides child abuse, an isolationist cult, a for profit cult but a dangerous extreme cult, no.

    I say again your remaining links are nothing more than opinions.
      October 6, 2017 6:49 AM MDT
    1

  • 2657
    Sorry, I wasn't referring to my following comments but his subsequent comments that followed his "'I’m pretty far removed from all kinds of religious conflict in general, and Jehova’s Witnesses (JW) in particular'?" that you quoted in trying to show he wasn't biased.
    I probably should have said:
    "You expect the guy to say he is biased? His 'subsequent' comments 'were' very telling."
    instead of
    "You expect the guy to say he is biased? His following comments 'are' very telling."
    and perhaps I should have started another paragraph after that?


    Quote: "I watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ipYfBXsNV4 as your link did not specify which video you were talking about, it only lead to a page of results."
    Okay, that's the one I addressed further up where you mentioned a video that was suspect to you.


    Opinions of non-biased people. 
      October 6, 2017 8:03 AM MDT
    1

  • 1326
    As a Jehovah's Witness even i was amazed to find out the space lab astronauts have heard the message of the good news. (Matthew 24:14) :D
      October 6, 2017 12:09 AM MDT
    2

  • 591
    I am amazed that a JW is the only one so far to see the funny side of it, well done.

      October 6, 2017 1:09 AM MDT
    4

  • 5354

    Matthew 24:14King James Version (KJV)
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    Wouldent that be a reason NOT to spread the gospel, Who in his right mind would want the world to end?

      October 6, 2017 1:13 AM MDT
    2

  • 2657
    You gave your understanding as that the world will end. What is your understanding of what that means?
      October 6, 2017 2:45 AM MDT
    0

  • 5354
    I dont know, it is your mythology ;)
      October 6, 2017 2:59 AM MDT
    1

  • 2657
    "I don't know". Thanks for being honest. 
    I just thought that since you added in about the world ending that perhaps you might understand what you were talking about. My mistake. If you actually read the Bible, you would know. But like so many others, you likely only read parts posted on anti Bible websites. At least that's the feeling I get from our conversations on answerbag. 
      October 6, 2017 3:40 AM MDT
    1

  • 5354
    If I believed the bible was "Gods living word to man" I would probably believe I knew. As it is I do not claim to know what "then shall the end come" means. All I can say is that it is not something I long for. Did you know, that up until today I have predicted "the end of the world" exactly zero times.
      October 6, 2017 3:52 AM MDT
    1

  • 2657
    Do you think that maybe you should read the Bible with an open mind before condemning it?
      October 6, 2017 3:55 AM MDT
    1

  • 5354
    I am not condemning the bible, just saying that there is no reason to assume it was 'written by god' (and quite a few reasons to assume that it was written by many different people at different times in Jewish history).

    And by the way, I have read it, to the point where I know it better than most Christians do. This post was edited by JakobA the unAmerican. at October 6, 2017 6:41 AM MDT
      October 6, 2017 6:37 AM MDT
    0