Turkish PM (or dictator, if you prefer) Tayyip Erdogan insists there isn't. I agree with him:
Be your answer as it may, perhaps watching the attached video may make the truth a bit more...eh...evident. :-)
"I do agree that it would be helpful if more moderates spoke up for peace on masse, and put more effort into publicising their positions."
I agree that would be nice, but expecting or wanting it to happen rather ignores the way Islam is put together and how it is seen to operate by it's followers. I'm no sort of expert, but I think much of the Islamic world is in a similar situation to that of the Roman Catholic church in the late middle ages. The priest was the 'authority' looked to by the congregation to give voice to issues involving God. Partly this was due to illiteracy - a bit of a handicap when debating or voicing opinions. But it also was a function of how the church administration was built. Illiteracy is no longer a problem, but the 'authority' bit still holds true.
So, in short, we may have large numbers of people who wait for those seen as most learned to speak rather than feeling capable of speaking themselves (or maybe authorised to), which may reduce the numbers discussing this sort of thing online.
The other issue I would raise, and one that continually annoys me, is the paucity of reporting of incidents when Islamic groups do condemn (which, I hasten to add, is almost all of them almost all the time). Such a pronouncement may get a passing reference in mainstream media, if any. The inevitable perception this will leave is obvious. A very large proportion of the population gets it's news from very limited sources and they don't go looking for more, and the result of such under-reporting is likely to give a false impression.
A few weeks ago there was a 'false alarm' in Germany that saw people on the streets running for cover. For a few hours nobody knew if it was just a nutter or a nutter with religion, during which thousands of people, alerted by social media, were on the streets and in a bit of a panic. One of the first on social media to respond to the events were local mosques, which advised anyone who was scared or in danger to come to them for safety.
If anyone can find that on any significant news channel or publication, I'll be surprised. When taken as a whole I think this amounts to something approaching false reporting (or under-reporting) for which we should all hold mainstream news programmes to account.
Thanks, Mr Witch. Well put.
Most of the media are run by magnates who support big business and right wing politics. The more midstream newspapers, sites, and channels show both mainstream sides of issues but not all the lesser sides -- they craft the leaning towards the right with more subtlety.
So one might wonder if they deliberately contribute to the fear mongering of the terrorists. -- Are they using it to buttress their interests?
Excellent post!
Oh, great. Another rain man runner up who can't tell the difference between a question and the intent (if any) of the person who asks it. Come right out of the gate with an ad hominem strafing run BEFORE ascertaining the OP's position. YEAH! THAT'S the way to do it!
ROFL! This is too easy. An idiom about ducks and barrels springs to mind. :-)
Note: for everyone else WITH a working forebrain:
1) I haven't taken any position at all on the subject other than to agree with the prime minister of Turkey--a man who, presumably, knows a hell of a lot more about Islam than any keyboard commando who can't tell the difference between an interrogatory and 'drivel.'
2) If you're 'exhausted' by reading all these 'nonsensical' questions, perhaps you should deactivate your account.
1) Inasmuch as you're not going to cease accusing me of having one, perhaps you should state what you think my agenda might be. And if there's "nothing wrong with that," why do you just as incessantly cite it? :-)
2) "They kept it sober." Really? LOL! Look at the two statements of 'rpf' quoted above. Notice the phrases "YOU ARE buying into..." and "YOU CAN'T find..." In both instances the author has targeted me directly, and I responded in kind. I shall also continue to do so as circumstances warrant. I would PREFER a civil exchange, but I will not tolerate ceaseless/baseless attacks. If you want a civil exchange with me, the solution is quite simple: do not make the conversation about me. Globally attacking faulty ideas, premises, logic, arguments, etc. is fine, however.
3) I don't consider 'li'l trooper' to be any kind of name calling, but point taken.
I used to explain away the huge numbers of terrorists as just radical Islam and moderate Islam as the people who weren't so extreme about it but since this person says there is no difference I guess I'll believe him too no such thing as moderate Islam, only radical. I guess that solves it then :)
1) Completely irrelevant. I didn't source him on the basis of his position in the Turkish government. I sourced him on the basis of his subscription to and knowledge of Islam.
2) Please offer a link/cite to an instance of my having "accused others" of being selective with their sources. Without it, you're being disingenuous.
3) Going strictly on the basis of anything I've said here, you've leveled yet ANOTHER ad hominem and baseless charge (what some would refer as a lie). Try again.
Eventually we'll have to if we wish to survive.
Eventually the remainder of the civilized world will have to if they wish to survive.
Islam is antithetical to human civilization and survival.
ROTFLMAO! YOU go on the attack against me without reading a single jot of what I said, and I am the one for whom you feel sorry?! I repeat: ROTFLMAO!
In any case that might actually mean something if a) you were sincere, and b) capable of any emotion resembling sympathy. So it is not I for whom you should feel sorry. Save your pity for the person to whom it is rightly due: YOURSELF.
If you believe that the Quran is fundamentally evil, and Muslims as a result must be evil as well if they "truly" believe, then yes, you are buying into propaganda.
Matthew 13:41-42
Deuteronomy 25:12
Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her
If Erdogan says that there is no difference between Radical and Moderate Islam, and you say you agree with him, then your de facto claim is that there is no difference between Radical and Moderate Islam. Yeah, I have enough understanding of logic and the English language to read between the lines, so don't try to pull that weaselly, backpedalling shit with me.
BTW I am not a girl. I'm not even female. But whatever, if you think that is a way you can belittle me, I only feel sorry for you.
That's super weird, because the Islamic world has propagated itself and thrived, for the past 1400 years. You'd think if it was that toxic, it would burn itself out in a few generations.
You're still misunderstanding the root of the problem. It's not religious beliefs per se (though I agree they are outdated and full of backward ideas) it's the political ideologies that use religion as a tool to coerce and intimidate people into returning to an idealized, glorified, barbaric, society that has no place in the modern era.
The more you rail against Islam, and Muslims, and talk about how they must be expunged from Western society, the more ammunition you give to that monstrous, Anti-Western ideology, that in turn rails against the West as being depraved, corrupt, and Anti-Muslim. You guys are the ones who are unwittingly shilling for ISIS, because you are exactly what they want their recruits to believe Westerners are like.
This is a very clever form of current bun argument.
Current buns without the currants are tasteless bits of white flour rubbish food.
The currents in arguments are usually emotive buzz words which appeal to an audience with a particular predisposition.
The little fruits sweeten the listening -- capture their attention and get them saying "yes" as they listen.
In this case - the fruits are the selective and authentic quotes from the Koran and Hadith.
(I've promised not to use apostrophes for 24 hrs so I'm cheating with ellipses.)
This woman is fiercely intelligent. She argues well.
She uses provable facts to establish the mental pattern of yes-saying
to get you feeling that you're in agreement.
But she errs by cherry picking.
She does not present the whole truth.
She completely ignores what moderate Muslims have worked hard to evolve over at least a century.
To see just how far off reality she is, please read Sapphic's list of comparisons below.
It shows the huge number of important differences between modernising moderates and fundamentalist radicals.
The Gatestone Institute composed the list after consultation with top experts from within both sides of Islam.
The institute was founded by Nina Rosenwald. It is a think-tank on international policy specializing in strategy and defense issues. Its board comprises intellectuals with diverse backgrounds who study each issue exhaustively with a view to finding optimum strategies for sticky issues. And it is non-profit.
The woman in the video has a political agenda which becomes clear towards the end of the speech. She is strongly pro-Republican. So although she has indeed immersed herself in studying from the source texts of Islam, she has intentionally ignored the long history of evolution of Islam among Moderates.
The Koran is flexible in several ways which many Westerners do not realise -- and one of the most important of those ways is that it puts great emphasis on the obligation to acquire education - knowledge and thinking. It does not restrict education to solely Koranic or Muslim sources. This -- among other things -- allows great leeway for the evolution of the modern forms of Isalm which we see among the moderates.
Lectures like the one above only serve to sow suspicion - fear - misunderstanding and prejudice. And worse - they pave the way for a 21st crusade which would make the west as guilty of atrocities as ISIS. I believe that our best course is to fight terrorist on the grounds of their crimes.We do need fight all out against jihad when it attempts to force people to its beliefs through murder - genocide (Yasidis, Hasaras, etc) - slavery and torture -- because this is self-defence of our rights to live as we see fit. But we should not use this issue to persecute moderates who can and do live peacefully among us -- the moderates do not accept jihad as part of their faith.
Please see Sapphic's - Gladstone's - list below.
@Some1UMayNo 2hrs ago.
Even though you weren't addressing me...I don't.
I don't feel the need of a god.
I appreciate that life on this planet is precious for its rarity in the universe.
It doesn't worry me that I will cease to exist after I die.
I have companionship among people and animals and the feeling of life in nature.
I experience intense awe of the universe and science and evolution
and take joy in the beauty and power of the natural world.
I have my ethical compass which says "first cause no harm."
So far there's no evidence that it doesn't work.
I can be altruistic and enjoy it without the need or expectation of heavenly rewards.
Maybe it is selfish to fill space with this declaration
but I hope that believers will understand from it
that living this way has no sense of anything missing.
That's one part of Wicca which I like: the Rede.
"An' it harm none, do as thou wilt."
(I really do wish your cited friend was capable of the same civility and rationality as yourself!)
I've told you a "peace" from your side at the end won't make previous patronizing/debasing/name calling behavior go away. You get what show, just like when you look into a mirror.
You've been shown plenty of civility (even praised by yourself after the above behavior shown from your side), but still you acted less accordingly to what seems being your own standards, or is it something else..?
Too bad you cannot handle a civil, and no name calling way of communication.
Btw, making your above comment shows very much your amount of civility. Pfft.
Excuse me? Did I call you a name in my response to Hartfire?
And are you REALLY sure you want to play "you get what you show" with me? You WILL lose, Sap. Go ahead. DON'T believe me. Please!
Now, about the EVIDENCE of your charges. Where might it be found...or is this yet another in a long list of drive-by's for which you're becoming famous?
"Poet heart" my bifurcated butt! Self-delude much?
They are just misguided. They truly believe they have truth, but Islam has no savior who died for their sins like Jesus did, God Almighty. So they are still in their sins which is just like the rest of the world. Jesus wants us to love all people so that is what I do regardless how hateful some people might be (not only some Muslims but others too). What kind of a world do we want to live in? I want to live in a peaceful one. I pray for these young men and women who are lost. And many are refugees who need shelter and food. I hope and pray we can treat them with the same kindness that we would like to have if we are homeless. And we can show them our Christian love and win them over.
Are you threatening me?!
As for EVIDENCE... Here we go again... Look up your own responses and you will find what you search for... I will in all civility leave out your self-delusions...
End of this thread from my side...
1) Are you learning disabled? Is English too tough for you? How in the hell did you take anything I said as a threat? No WONDER we don't get along. You can't comprehend what you read!! ("You get what you show" is an Internet GAME, Sap, as any normal person with basic comprehension skills would understand after reading the word PLAY.)
2) You made the charge. The burden of PROVING that charge is on you, dear. :-) Failure to do so suggests you're deliberately trying to deceive (i.e., are lying),
3) Right. Another drive-by. ROFL! One thing about you, Sap, you're consistent.
Bravo! I wish I were half the Christian you seem to be, Carazaa. I love our Muslim brothers and sisters in the abstract, but it's kinda hard making it more personal/concrete than that when they want to do us so much harm. Yes, I'm aware that only some ten to twenty percent of them harbor such feelings, but ten to twenty percent of 1.5 billion people is a LOT of hatred.
