Discussion » Questions » Current Events and News » The person who won the Olympic Gold in Woman's Boxing is filing hate crime against people on the internet, will it be successful?

The person who won the Olympic Gold in Woman's Boxing is filing hate crime against people on the internet, will it be successful?

JK Rowling and Musk are mentioned specifically.   The criminal complaint was filed in France. 

Posted - August 14

Responses


  • 17582
    The immediate question is jurisdiction.
      August 14, 2024 12:15 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    My thought as well. Musk is in USA but I believe JK Rowling is in the EU so she may have more to deal with.
      August 14, 2024 12:21 PM MDT
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  • 3719
    J.K. Rowling is British and unless she has moved abroad, lives in Britain, not the EU which is anyway not a nation but a bloc of over two dozen separate nations.

    Can't help thinking here is someone being persuaded by lawyers wanting to make lots of money, to try to make lots of money from trying to stop people saying things with which she disagrees.

    Whether a civil law suit launched in France against anyone living in other countries can work, I have no idea; but I think she'd have a tough time trying to sue someone as rich as Musk, able to buy the most expensive lawyers in the USA. Or simply to buy her off.

    The lawyers of course, will make lots of money "win" or lose. This post was edited by Durdle at August 20, 2024 3:51 PM MDT
      August 20, 2024 2:53 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    That's right, I forgot about Brexit.
      August 20, 2024 3:52 PM MDT
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  • 8209
    A tad bit delusional, me thinks. 
      August 14, 2024 2:02 PM MDT
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  • 8209
    I heard two trans men won all the matches against the women and ended up fighting each other for the womens gold. Did you hear that as well? 
      August 14, 2024 11:26 PM MDT
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  • 16732
    Imane Khelif is from Algeria, where being trans is a capital offence. Algeria would NOT have sent a trans athlete to represent them, it's more likely they'd have chained her to a post in downtown Algiers and stoned her to death.
    She was born a girl and has female genitalia. The IBA has alleged that she and a Taiwanese boxer failed a gender test but has repeatedly refused to have the results independently verified or even specify the kind if testing that was performed - and "the specifics are confidential", from THEM, sounds suspiciously like "we made it up". The two boxers who allegedly "failed the test" were also the only two to defeat previously unbeaten Russian boxers in that tournament, which is another red flag (no pun intended).
      August 15, 2024 2:13 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    XY chromosomes = biological male

    If the Olympics wanted to defend biological female sports all they had to do was replicate the chromosomes test themselves.   They chose not to claiming they go by the gender listed on the passport.  And that currently SCIENCE does not have a test to determine if a person is a biological man or woman.  Yes science does and it is the chromosome test, even if the person has XXY they are still male.  (This maybe even be the case here) 

    In physical competitions, men are simply built differently than women.  Men have longer legs and arms, men have large lungs, men's muscle tissue is more fibrous, their body processes testosterone differently.   That is the science of it.

    We have seen this now in swimming, in tennis (Williams sisters got beaten by mediocre male players badly), MMA fighting (fractured skulls), now boxing.  There was even a contest years ago female Olympians vs male High School athletes....high schoolers won. 

    The world used to know this. This is why we teach our young boys from a young age you do not hit girls. 

    All the Olympics had to do was perform their own test. Instead lied and claimed it did not exist.  
      August 15, 2024 6:09 AM MDT
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  • 3667
    So, the only reason boys are taught not to hit girls is because they're bigger and stronger, not because it's a terrible thing to do? This post was edited by Spunky at August 20, 2024 5:05 AM MDT
      August 15, 2024 6:26 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    It is not the only reason.  But it certainly is a big part.  

    We don't tell girls don't hit other girls or boys don't hit other boys.   We tell them don't hit or don't start fights.  We tell them, they have the right to defend themselves.  And need to defend themselves.  

    But we do tell boys don't hit girls even if the hit you first. Why? Because we as adults know men are stronger than women. Generally even a small 100# man will be stronger than the average woman. 
    So we train our boys as a child, you do not hit girls. You can defend yourself to stop her from hurting you, but you do not hit girls. Boys who are taught this grow up to be men who do not hit women. (Sadly with some exceptions) This post was edited by my2cents at August 15, 2024 8:47 AM MDT
      August 15, 2024 7:10 AM MDT
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  • 16732
    That Khelif even HAS a Y chromosome is open to question. It's alleged, by a organisation known to be corrupt, with ties to the Russian Mafia. The IBA has muddied the waters by refusing to release the information other then the results - and the "confidentiality" argument doesn't wash, the RESULTS are precisely what should remain confidential and they shouted those out to anyone who would listen.
    She's been beaten by cis female boxers in the past. Nine career defeats, didn't medal in Tokyo so she trained hard and got better. Had she been a man, she'd have steamrolled all opposition as did those "average" male tennis players who beat the Williams sisters.
    Incidentally, you seem to have overlooked the 1973 exhibition when BJ Moffitt-King beat former men's #1 Bobby Riggs in straight sets. This post was edited by Slartibartfast at August 21, 2024 5:48 AM MDT
      August 21, 2024 5:41 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    All the Olympics had to do was run the test.  They run tests on athletes for numerous reasons. 
    But for this case to continue, I think the results of the test will be required.

    King was 29 and Riggs was 55 when they had that match....hardly something to shout about.   Other than to shut up a loud mouth man. 
      August 21, 2024 6:09 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    Yes I did.   Olympics failed women this year. 
      August 15, 2024 6:11 AM MDT
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  • 7939
    You're specifically referencing genotypic sex. But there's also phenotypic sex to consider, which references whether the person has male or female reproductive organs/ genitalia. And, considering someone can have a chromosomal abnormality that, based on your definition would make them male, they might still have female reproductive organs. And, the interesting thing about that is that those could alter the hormone balance, particularly testosterone, which may then diminish or eliminate the characteristics such as muscle mass which you associated with men. 

    Here's the medical lit on that: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10943/ 

    But, to be fair, we don't know this person's medical information. We know she was born in a country that has laws against transgender people. Meaning, in all likelihood, she was born with all the external equipment for them to label her as female at birth. Some people claim she failed the gender test. We don't know that she really did or, if so, why she did. The speculation is harmful.

    Anyway, to answer your question... sort of... you'd have to define "successful."

    Is "success" taken to mean:

    1. These people will be found guilty and penalized based on this filing? Probably not - for the reason Thrifty mentioned. Jurisdiction.
    2. These people will be found guilty and penalized based on later filings in their respective jurisdictions? Maybe.
    3. People will learn that it's not ok to bully others online based on their gender and that there are consequences for doing so? Hopefully, but this is new, and the people involved have money to throw around that will save them from the consequences of their bad behavior.
    4. This filing will clear her name, so she can hopefully return to her home country and not be bullied, attacked, or murdered. I really hope so. If not, those people have blood on their hands every bit as much as any future perpetrator does. 
      August 15, 2024 10:03 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    Yes I am specifically talking about their chromosomes,  they are what decide how our bodies develop. 

    You are right we don't know for certain if Imane Khelif did or did not test as XY or XXY on the test. And truthly we should not know...it is a medical test.   The Olympics needs to test every athlete and all we would know is this person did not pass an Olympic qualifying test.  If could be any number of things. Of course,  people would speculate but they will anyway.  The Olympics could have avoided it but they did not. 

    But the Y in XY is why we have male and female sporting divisions.   And in this day in age, we need to test now. 

    Jenner who won an Olympic medal  (gold??)  Certainly would know both sides to this type of thing says it should not be allowed it will destroy female sports. 

    In terms of what I was referring to as success in the question, would the defendants lose the case and face any actual penalties. 

    As for Imane Khelif yes, I do hope there is no violence  or otherwise negative reprocussions from this.
      August 15, 2024 5:17 PM MDT
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  • 7939
    My point was that lots of things decide how our bodies develop, not just chromosomes. If you'd like to learn more about the science behind this and why a person's sex isn't determined by chromosomes alone, an endocrinologist breaks it down here: https://www.theage.com.au/national/not-so-simple-boxer-imane-khelif-and-the-science-of-sex-20240805-p5jzlk.html

    It's behind a paywall, but if you copy it before the wall loads and paste it into a word doc, you can read it without signing up.

    As for your statement: "all we would know is this person did not pass an Olympic qualifying test." I assume this is a typo and you meant International Boxing Association. Because the Olympics accepted her as a woman. The IBA is the one that didn't and they made their ruling after she won.

    Another thing that isn't being widely publicized is that she underwent independent testing. The results were different than the IBA's and she contested the IBA's ruling. However, she was responsible for paying to contest it and did not have the funds to continue to do so. Source: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/boxing/women-s-category-must-be-only-women-doctor-defends-iba-bans-at-farcical-press-conference-20240806-p5jzsv.html

    As for Jenner, she does not know both sides of this. She was born a biological male. She developed as a biological male. She doesn't have the slightest idea what it might be like to be born as a female, develop as a female, be raised as a female, and then be suddenly told as an adult that she's not. Jenner is transgender. If anything at all, Khelif is intersex. (And we don't even know this much because we don't have her medical results.) Jenner is also not a doctor. Her degree is in physical education. I don't know what coursework was required, but she may not have even needed to take basic biology. That's not someone I would consider a trusted source of information on the topic. If Jenner wants to weigh in on transgender rights in the Olympics, then maybe she could speak from a place of personal experience. But, that's not what this is and that's part of the reason why these people were way off base when speaking publicly about Khelif.
      August 15, 2024 8:21 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    No, it was not a typo.  It was a hypothetical of what would have happened had the Olympic committee performed the test. They perform many different tests on athletes.  And we would only know for certain that the person failed a test to qualify for the competition.  

    Again, the Y chromosome makes the body male.  In mammals, XXXXXY and they will be biologically male.  Yes, the phenotype genitals may appear female or change appearance during puberty.  

    For the purposes of sports, not appearance,  not gender identity etc.   The Y chromosome causes the typical male development of the body (again not about the phenotype of the genitals) but then length of arms and legs, the size of the lungs, the way muscles process oxygen from the lungs, the different type of muscle fibers themselves, stronger ligaments, stronger upper body,  more iron reserves (more oxygen circulation), higher blood pressure (more indurance) there is likely more.  

    But for sports, intersex people are biologically male and should not be allowed to compete with biological females. Certainly not in a contact sport. 
      August 16, 2024 6:09 AM MDT
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  • 7939

    It sounds like you're suggesting that an intersex person would present as a man, with all the physical advantages that a traditional biological male would have. The article explained in clear terms, medically and scientifically, why that premise is wrong, and why chromosomes alone don't determine sex or body appearance, composition, etc. If your genuine concern is to level the playing field and have people compete only against those that have the same makeup, or close to it, then understanding why chromosomes alone are not enough to make this determination is essential. Here's an excerpt: 

    "Our chromosomes do not conclusively determine our sex. For example, in some cases the X and Y chromosomes can recombine, leading to a child with XX chromosomes and male sexual attributes.
    Indeed, the region on the Y chromosome that determines the development of male testes is located perilously close to the region the chromosome divides – leading humans as a species to have a “relatively high frequency of sex reversal”.
    “Humans aren’t black and white; they’re not just male and female,” says Associate Professor Ada Cheung, endocrinologist at the University of Melbourne. “There are many ways to be intersex.”
    Nor does a single gene determine sex. The human fetus develops a “bipotential gonad”, which is then shaped by the actions of a large number of genes. Alterations to each of those genes can cause differences in sexual development. Variations in more than 70 genes have been linked to differences in sexual development.

    On top of this sit hormones, chemical messengers like testosterone, that the developing foetus produces and which trigger changes in genital development.
    Consider androgen insensitivity syndrome: the individual has XY chromosomes but their body cannot respond to certain male sex hormones. Or congenital adrenal hyperplasia, where alterations to a key gene lead to excess male sex hormones in people with XX or XY chromosomes.
    The complexities of the contributors to sexual variation – each variation making its own discrete difference – mean that simple binaries do not apply.
    “I think of it as two curves, with an overlap, and in that overlap zone is the intersex condition,” says Professor Vincent Harley, head of sex development research at the Hudson Institute of Medical Research. “It’s a spectrum.”

    Working out how many people carry these differences is extremely challenging, but reviews of surveys put the number around 1.7 per cent. For perspective, that’s a similar number to people who have red hair.

      August 16, 2024 11:41 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    From what I have researched,  there is one type of XY that will often present genitals with female phenotype.  That is 46,XY DSD.  This is most likely what Khelif has as based on reports of likely "exterior equipment". 

    There are not many studies about the rest of the body. Most simply concentrate on the sex organs and their present or lack of presence and their exterior phenotype of the genitals.  

    But there are some:


    So in most cases, muscles, bones and lungsdevelop as a typical MALE.   These typical differences in male/female development are in fact why we do a division of male and female sports. 

    In different interviews with people who have interacted in sports with this person (opponents,  sparring partners etc) all say this is like interacting with a typical person. 


      August 18, 2024 11:38 AM MDT
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  • 7939
    The document you shared uses the phrases "in most cases" and "usually." This means, even in this prime example, a person's chromosomes don't always determine what their build will be. 
      August 19, 2024 5:35 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    The doctument I used is not for chromosomes in general.  It is specifically for people with 46,XY DSD.  The intersex chromosomes that Khelif likely has.  

    Even with typical XY or XX there are people who for one reason or another may not develop typically.  Can be nutritional issues, environmental issues etc....
      August 19, 2024 8:35 PM MDT
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  • 10980
    Just thought I'd throw this in.

      August 16, 2024 7:46 PM MDT
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  • 1495
    I’m just happy so many kids will pay more attention in biology class. The need to be an expert about everything on the internet seems a powerful motivator.
      August 20, 2024 5:07 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    You do not have to be an expert in everything just know how to find information when you need it. 
      August 20, 2024 6:01 AM MDT
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