Discussion » Questions » Current Events and News » Another victory for election integrity. Why would anyone oppose this law?

Another victory for election integrity. Why would anyone oppose this law?

Law in AZ: to require new voters to provide proof of citizenship when they register. Law was passed a few years ago but was prevented in court from being enforced. SCOTUS said it may go into effect.  5-4 decision.    (Should have been 9-0 in my I opinion)

Posted - August 22

Responses


  • 16732
    Proof how? Many poorer folks don't have drivers licences and therefore no photo ID. If they're happy to accept a birth certificate (combined with a marriage certificate orvdeed poll in the case on a change of name), then fair enough.
      August 22, 2024 6:06 PM MDT
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  • 13277
    Actually, states do issue photo IDs to non-drivers.
      August 22, 2024 6:17 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    You beat me to it.  My son has a non drivers ID, my Mom and Grandmother's all had non-drivers IDs. 
    .
      August 22, 2024 6:27 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    A drivers license or a non-drivers license do not always prove citizenship as some state issue non citizens licenses and they are not always marked as non citizens.   (Not sure how AZ handles that) Normally that would be birth certificate or naturalization papers. 
      August 22, 2024 6:31 PM MDT
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  • 7939
    Arizona allows lots of different methods to prove you're a citizen. Providing your birth certificate when you register to vote is one way to do it. 

    IDs and licenses are not different for citizens/ non-citizens. However, they track what documentation you provided on the back end. If you provided your birth certificate to get your license or ID, then they already have it and will honor your request to register to vote. 

    I did read some of the lit on who was getting the "federal only" registration (meaning they didn't supply proof of citizenship) and most of those occur on/ near college campuses, which makes sense, since they'd likely be away from home and their birth certificate or whatever might still be home with mom or lost to the sands of time. In other words, this law does directly impact the ability for many college kids to vote... and we know younger demographics lean left. Also, it's not always easy to get a replacement birth certificate. A friend of mine is from a smaller city in California and he had to drive there to get a copy of the birth certificate. So, I think, with those things in mind, it's fair to say that this law disproportionately affects the dems, and skews the odds of victory in favor of republicans as a result. It makes sense that many people would oppose it. This also correlates with the "federal only" figures. Only 15% are republican, while 29% are democrat, and the rest are independent. 

    I know it's done under the guise of preventing illegal voting, but I don't think it actually impacts that. Illegal voting usually involves absentee ballots or duplicate voting. Only 1.6% of voter fraud cases here relates to ineligible voting. That's five of the 32 cases on file, according to the Heritage Foundation (a conservative organization). Given that there are roughly 32,000 federal-only voters, what they've done is stopped around 27,613 non-republicans from voting, of which, statistically, 27,172 are valid.  

    Well... bravo, republican party. That's one way to win elections. The neat thing about that is if you cut someone off from voting while they're young, they're less likely to do it as they age, meaning the republican party just changed the balance of voting for an entire generation. Sweet.

    Oh, the second-biggest population of voters impacted are those in homeless shelters. I don't have stats on that, but I'm guessing they're not going to polls to cut funding for services or give wealthy people tax breaks. 
      August 22, 2024 9:05 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    You can get a birth certificate through the mail. Just a matter of paperwork and paying the fees.  I got extra copies for myself and my daughter from my home state through the mail. It took about 2 weeks.  
    If it is at Mom and Dad's then they can send it through mail. If lost the order a new copy (through the mail) It is part of being an adult. If you want to vote do what is required to vote. Just as we have to do with anything else we want to do. 

    I agree most voter fraud is through mail in system.  Which is why the need more people on the registry.  You cannot request a fraudulent mail in ballot if they are not registered to vote. 

    Homeless people might very well vote for candidates strong on law enforcement and strong on border security and deportations. Many homeless are being forced out of shelters to be replaced by illegals.  
      August 23, 2024 5:06 AM MDT
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  • 7939

    Birth certificates are often handled at the county level, not the state level. Not all counties offer birth certificates by mail and not all offer it under all circumstances. For instance, people with name changes and those who have been adopted don't qualify for remote processing in the jurisdiction I referenced. Therein was the issue. He didn't know it at the time, but his mom changed his name a few days after he was born. Hence, he had to drive to get his birth certificate. I am familiar with how nice it is to be able to get copies online. I've gotten my own and my mom's that way. 

    The mail issue largely relates to duplicate voting... and the predominant reasons that happened is because 1. A lawful voter forgot they voted by mail and then votes again in person, or 2. A lawful voter verifies their ballot hasn't been counted and goes in to vote in person, only for that mail-in ballot to be counted later, after they've voted in person. These aren't issues with people fraudulently registering to vote. Again, if they were, they would have been included in my counts. 

    As far as the homeless argument... I didn't say all homeless people vote democrat. I also tried to find a single source that backed up your claim about illegal immigrants taking up the space in shelters and forcing Americans out. I couldn't find anything on that at all. The closest I got was a a few reports about how temporary shelters set up specifically for refugees and asylum seekers were at capacity. For clarification, refugees and asylum seekers are here legally. They're not undocumented. And, these reports talk about how they're using services specifically designed for them. Of course, how that gets reported varies depending on the outlet reporting. The Heritage article, for example, talks about a shelter in New York that was set up for asylum seekers that had to turn people away. But, rather than making it clear who that shelter was for and who those people were, it moved into a discussion about illegal immigration, as if undocumented immigrants were to blame for these facilities being at capacity and those shelters were for everyone to use. They aren't the same thing and those shelters were not for Americans. But, you wouldn't know that by reading the Heritage article. 

    Without any evidence of "homeless being forced out of shelters to be replaced by illegals," it sounds like this is just another scare tactic being used - something that isn't really a problem being exploited like it is a problem so that legislation gets passed to address something else... much like how AZ's law to prevent "illegal voting" isn't really doing that, but is skewing elections in the favor of republicans instead... though it sure sounds nice to think it's doing something about illegal voting. Kind of like your question is posed - who could possibly be against a law that prevents illegal voting? Underneath it though, when you know the data, it's slimy. 

    I don't want to go on a rant, but really, this is what politics has become. It's cloak and dagger. Smoke and mirrors. "Pay no attention to me while I'm making sure my pockets stay full and the disadvantaged stay that way. Look over here at this really terrible non-problem that I'm fixing." 

      August 23, 2024 12:53 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    Birth and death records are state records not county. All but one state offers online ordering of birth certificates.  And the one that does not directs you to a third party site to use. Yes, of course you will have to have your correct information to order one. 

    There are several pages of ineligible voter charges listed. Many for being felons.   And I saw more than 25 that were illegal aliens who voted. And I did not go through all of them or even half. And many do not state the reason why the person was ineligible.  

    I did not claim you said all homeless would vote Dem, I simply pointed to reasons why some would vote Rep. 
     https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/migrant-crisis/fights-break-out-at-nyc-shelters-as-tensions-among-homeless-rise-amid-migrant-influx/3878907/
    In New York homeless people were displaced to make room for illegals. 

    We require IDs and further documentation for all sorts of times and voting should be not different.  We should want to protect our votes from being canceled by a person who is not legal to vote. 

      August 24, 2024 8:37 AM MDT
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  • 7939

    Are we reading the same articles? The one you just linked explained that "it is department policy to transfer those in shelters based on a variety of different needs, including capacity, building issues and need." It also only talked about one family being moved - it was a migrant family that moved to a new shelter because they felt unsafe. This article is also clear that it's referencing asylum seekers, not illegal immigrants. 

    I'm not sure what site you got your data from in terms of voter issues. I got mine from Heritage Foundation - there were literally only 32 total cases listed in Arizona (a 3-page list), of which 1.6% related to ineligible people registering to vote. 

    If we're going to require documentation for someone to use their right to vote, we should make it free and easy for them to get that documentation. Voting should not be a pay-to-play game. That's neither fair nor equal. 

    As for birth certificates, I'm not sure what your point is. I acknowledged it's typically easy to get one by mail, while also citing a personal experience in which it was not. This wasn't hearsay. This was a situation in which I personally believed the person was full of crap until I tried to help them and realized they really did have to drive to their location of birth to get a birth certificate. Unless you're trying to tell me that my story never happened, than any other explanation you might have about how you can get them by mail is a moot point. 

      August 26, 2024 1:51 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    Sorry on the Heritage site I had not filtered it to just AZ. The site only keeps track of convictions (as it should) As you said how it gets caught is when some votes for someone else (normally by mail) and the actual people comes in to vote. Now, if they vote via mail and the real person does not come in to vote, it does not get caught.  This is why they pad the rolls. And fight to prevent cleaning the rolls.  
    I know my Grandfather was still on the rolls for 10 yrs after he passed in IL. My step Mom worked the polls and told them every year that he had passed.  So I do know no one tried to vote as him in person.  TX just removed over 1M ineligible voters. Maybe AZ is more effective in keeping their rolls clean but given the issues of last election,  I doubt it. 

    From the article: There have been similar stories shared from several shelters across the city as well. Some nonprofit shelter operators said that a major cause of resentment is the city government, which is now moving people around from shelter to shelter to make room for migrants.

    Here is another article: https://apnews.com/article/massachusetts-homeless-migrants-shelter-limits-

    P
    eople being giving limits on the time they can be in the shelter to make room for the illegals.  

    Here is another were 150 students have no bus access to and from school. But the illegals do. Of course,  they deny that is why. But schools had to hire more teachers to teach English to the illegals.  How many teachers = a bus route cost? 
    https://redstate.com/wardclark/2024/08/24/over-100-boston-area-students-without-bus-rides-to-school-while-illegal-immigrants-get-free-rides-n2178492


    We require doctuments and fees to exercise our other Congressional rights.  However, every state has programs for homeless to acquire these documents for free. And anyone who want a ID to vote can get one for free as well. 

    My point about the BC is what I said. They are state records.  And you can get them online. Your friend did not know his name at birth. So he could not properly fill out the online info. Or more documentation was required because of the name change.   This post was edited by my2cents at August 28, 2024 5:58 AM MDT
      August 27, 2024 6:49 AM MDT
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  • 7939
    It takes a little while to get to the actual story behind the links you share. You keep using the word "illegals" but these aren't illegal immigrants. In every case you cite, I've been able to trace it back to asylum seekers, refugees, and others who have been granted temporary protective status (TPS) by the federal government. In other words, they are all here legally. 

    The city you're referencing - Stoughton, MA - has become home to a large population of Haitian migrants who are here specifically because they have TPS. Again TPS = Legal  The children with TPS do indeed have busses to school... which are paid for by the state and do not come from the school or school district's bus fund. Money to run those busses was not diverted from the other busses.

    I don't understand why we're even talking about immigrants though. I guess because your argument was that homeless people would vote against immigration? That wasn't really central to any argument though. 

    And, no, you can't get copies of stuff free. Arizona only has free IDs for people 65 and over and sometimes for those receiving SSI. Your garden variety homeless person, struggling student, single parent, etc, would not qualify. There are no discounts for birth certificates either. This is centered on children getting copies of their documents but it covers all the relevant laws by state: https://schoolhouseconnection.org/article/state-laws-on-vital-records
    This is really interesting - I suggest watching "Homeless ID Project in the news" https://www.homelessidproject.org/
      August 27, 2024 3:20 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    All the people crossing the border illegally are claiming refugee status. That is the way to game the system currently.  They are told what to say by NGOs and even by the Mexican government.  And Biden/Harris are allowing it even encouraging it.   Would you prefer I say illegal border crossers?    Point is they are NON-Citizens who crossed our border illegally and they are using services that are paid for by our taxes and that should be used for our citizens who are in need. 

    Yes the homelessidproject, they have several locations in AZ and will help them get their documents at no fee to them.   So the state itself may not be giving free docts (or at least I cannot find it at this point) this program is and they have several different locations throughout AZ.  And they also help people based on means grounds even if they are not homeless. 


    (Interesting to note the AP article I linked to is now not available....)
      August 28, 2024 7:58 AM MDT
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  • 3667
    Anyone who isn't a Native American is an immigrant, but there are those who don't understand the differences between "illegal," "immigrant," "asylum seeker," "refugee," etc. To some people (wink, wink), anyone who didn't come here through Ellis Island doesn't belong here. 
      August 28, 2024 8:38 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    No I am a natural born citizen, I was born here and my parents were citizens at the time of my birth (their birth too).   I have no evidence of being Native American.   My ancestors were indeed immigrants to America.   They came legally.  I am NOT an immigrant. 

    Anyone who did no follow the laws to come here....in my opinion absolutely does not belong here.  And shouldn't not be using services that are for Americans in need of those services.  
      August 28, 2024 9:35 AM MDT
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  • 3667
    You missed my point entirely - I'm shocked.  
      August 28, 2024 10:36 AM MDT
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  • 16732
    "Strong on law enforcement." Harris is a former DA, Trump a convicted felon.

    "Paperwork and paying the fees." The italics highlight the problem.
      August 23, 2024 10:04 PM MDT
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  • 34171
    Yes the government charges fees for copies of your birth certificate and for any other things we want or need copies of.  That is life and part of being a member of soci. I do not know if there are problems were social workers help people get copies for free.  

    Registering to vote should be required,  proof of citizenship should be required, proof of residency should be required and after all of that is verified then when you come to vote ID should be required to prove you are the person who required to vote. 

    Sometimes we are required to do things or show ID to exercise our rights. 
      August 26, 2024 7:04 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    Kamala was a DA. Kamala threw over 1000 men in jail for possession of pot. Ignored court orders to release prisoners, ignored exploratory evidence as well.  She was was a bad DA, a bad point person on the boarder, a bad Senator, and is currently a bad VP. 
      August 26, 2024 7:09 AM MDT
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  • 3667
    If you're homeless, how do you get a birth certificate by mail?
      August 26, 2024 7:54 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    How do they register and get a mail in ballot?  How do they get a permit for the their other rights?   I don't know but that is what we require to protect other citizens rights. 
    But most likely they will need assistance from someone or an organization.

    There are programs and processes for homeless people to get not only their birth certificate but other forms of ID gor free in every state.  This post was edited by my2cents at August 26, 2024 8:48 AM MDT
      August 26, 2024 8:42 AM MDT
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  • 10980
    You can get one in person. In my state, to get a birth certificate you have to attest that you are who you say you are and have it notarized. Presumably,  there is a penalty for getting a birth certificate you are not entitled to have but I dont know how/if they verify. There is also a fee. Then you take the birth certificate and other proof of identity in person, to apply for and get a photo ID. There is also a fee. All of this takes times, so you need to get started well before voting. In the end, it boils down to a person attesting to their own identity,  which is what you do when you vote, but it's more paperwork, more costs and more time. When you register to vote, they check the records for birth, death, naturalization, and other qualifications. IMO,  the whole photo ID issue is just another form of voter suppression. If you don't have transportation, or are disabled, or have trouble filling out forms, or can't afford it (MN $26 for birth  certificate,  $32 for state ID), then you probably won't vote. 
      August 26, 2024 9:58 AM MDT
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  • 3667
    I recently moved from NY to PA and one of the first things I did was to get a Real ID driver's license.  I had to go to the DMV, which was much faster than in NY, got my proper license in the mail we week or so later.  Then I applied for a voter's registration.  As you know, PA is a swing state, so it was important for me to be able to vote in this election.  I had my registration in a week or so and I had to cancel my registration in NYS by writing a letter asking them to remove my name from the voting rolls.  It isn't that big a deal to do either, but if you don't know how to navigate the system, it can be confusing.  Fortunately, my sister helped me out with the PA stuff, and the internet helped me with cancelling NY.  However I can see where that would be difficult for someone who is homeless or ignorant of the processes.  It appears that the GOP is very happy not to have as many people registered to vote as possible as they would probably lose more often.
      August 26, 2024 10:49 AM MDT
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  • 34171
    Yes it is a pain.  But there are ways to get things done.  

    Personally, I have never been on the everybody vote bandwagon.  I have always said I would prefer people who know the issues and who supports their issues be the ones to vote. And if someone does not bother to find this out then I would rather they not bother to vote either. There is of course no way to enforce that and I do NOT want any sort of a law like that

    Every state has programs to help and I would assume that different organizations that specialize in helping homeless people also about of these programs and how to help these people do what is (and should be required) to get doctuments to vote, get a job etc. 
      August 26, 2024 11:12 AM MDT
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  • 10980
    Voting is a right, not a privilege. No state should put requirements in place that make it hard for someone to exercise their right. If someone is determined to commit a felony and cast a fraudulent vote, this law isn't going to stop them. There are varying requirements and fees across every county in the US for obtaining photo ID, and whether those pose a burden to those who advocate for these laws is immaterial. 
      August 23, 2024 5:29 AM MDT
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