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Discussion » Questions » Politics » What's up with all this recount nonsense?

What's up with all this recount nonsense?

The behavior of Jill Stein, who has filed in Wisconsin for a recount of votes cast in the presidential election, and who plans to pursue recounts in Michigan and Pennsylvania as well, has been frustrating; that of Hillary Clinton, who joined the effort, human but disappointing; and that of Donald Trump, outrageous and destructive. The recount business has not brought out the best in anybody, and in Trump it has brought out the worst: in a series of tweets, he alleged that millions of votes were fraudulent, enough to cost him the popular vote.But none of this is going to produce any change in the results of the election.

This is not Al Gore losing Florida by fewer than 1,000 votes in 2000. Trump won Michigan by about 20,000 votes, Pennsylvania by 70,000, and Wisconsin by 30,000. And it is worth noting that Stein won enough votes in Michigan and Wisconsin to account for Clinton’s losses there. Her Wisconsin application lists a number of reasons for a recount, most of which are paraphrases of a single thought: the Russians might, just might, have fixed the election—after all, they hacked John Podesta’s e-mail. Added to that is the general observation that electronic voting systems are, in any state, theoretically hackable. That amounts to saying that no one should really trust any results. Attached to her submission is an affidavit from a computer expert, J. Alex Halderman, who has long warned against electronic voting systems. But, apart from explaining why a paper record is a good idea, he doesn’t really offer any evidence, apart from press reports that the Russians have hacked other things and a general sense that they are up to no good. And Halderman includes this line: “One would expect a skilled attacker’s work to leave no visible signs, other than a surprising electoral outcome in which results in several close states differed from pre-election polling.” This is classic conspiracy logic: the absence of evidence is evidence of just how insidious it is!

Posted - November 29, 2016

Responses


  • 3934
    So, if there's no there there, let's have a recount and get it out of the way.

    Implicit in your question is the assertion Stein's request for a recount is less legitimate than other requests for recounts in other elections. You offer no reason for it other than your belief (which may or may not be well-founded) a recount will not change anything.

    The whole nation endured the Bush v. Gore recount in Florida. Other recounts (such as the election of Al Franken to the Senate) have been bitter and acromonious. We got through them.

    I don't see why we should make a special case out of Stein's request for a recount. If she has filed her request according to the revelevant laws, let's get it over with.
      November 29, 2016 6:01 PM MST
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  • 13277
    I have two issues with it, OS. First, it's disingenuous of Stein to suddenly be so concerned with helping Clinton win when she could have helped a lot more by dropping out of a race she had no chance of winning instead of siphoning off enough votes to keep Hillary from winning two of the three states. Second, Gore lost Florida by fewer than 1,000 votes and the entire election hung in the balance. In this case, the margins are much larger and if it's not going to change anything, what's the point?
      November 29, 2016 6:16 PM MST
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  • 3934
    @StuB -- If you look back at the 2000 election timeline, at one point GWB was projected to beat Gore in Florida by 50,000 votes. It wasn't until the votes were actually counted that the margin shrunk to the 1,000 or so it ultimately turned out to be.

    I stand by my original answer. If Stein has followed the appropriate procedures for requesting a recount, it DOES NOT MATTER what her motives are (and for which you only have personal guesses). We've had recounts in other elections (as I noted above), it didn't break our republic to have them. Let's get it over with.
      November 29, 2016 6:27 PM MST
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  • 23582
    I hope the "Trump Tweets Becoming News Events" ends soon


    ~ I realize my comment does not really address so much your question. For some reason, the tweets were the main thing that stuck out to me of your question's description.
    :) This post was edited by WelbyQuentin at November 29, 2016 6:16 PM MST
      November 29, 2016 6:13 PM MST
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  • 10052
    I don't know if this is the case, but my thinking is that perhaps Dr. Stein thinks that she was close to getting the number of votes required to "legitimize" the Green Party? I agree that since she campaigned until the end for people to vote for her, it makes little sense that she is just now realizing that perhaps she should have done as Bernie Sanders did, and ask her supporters to legitimately vote against Trump, by voting for HRC. 

    One of his inner circle really does need to hack Trump's twitter account and change the password, though, or that moron is going to be committed before he even takes office!  :)
      November 29, 2016 8:27 PM MST
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  • 17261
    What do you say, cancel the legitimate rights given to have a recount, or does it just apply to Stein? Any other legitimate rights we should cancel now that we are looking at it, free press just to mention one? After all it's biased and pure nonsense, right? This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at November 30, 2016 12:28 AM MST
      November 29, 2016 10:50 PM MST
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  • 3934
    @SH -- Exactly!  I don't think the Stein-requested recount will change anything.

    But the Bush v. Gore recount didn't change anything, nor did the challenge to Al Franken's election, and the debates over those were just as bitter and partisan as the current situation (or maybe even more so in the case of Bush v. Gore).

    I don't see why we should make the Stein case an exception.
      November 29, 2016 10:54 PM MST
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  • 17261
    It's a legitimate right given to her, or the request(s) will be denied. There can be two reasons why the PET tweets about this, 1) he fears the recount will change the results and make him an even weaker PE (he did already lose the popular vote with high numbers), and/or 2) he tries to pull attention away from what else he is up to (likely private matters, like lawsuits or businesses involving the head of a foreign country, e.g. Russia among others). This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at November 30, 2016 12:29 AM MST
      November 29, 2016 11:04 PM MST
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  • 13277
    Legitimate rights are one thing and reality is another. A recount just because it's a right but that has no chance of changing anything is a pointless exercise.
      November 30, 2016 10:58 PM MST
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  • 17261
    Are you the one to judge what is reality, and what is having a chance to change anything? Are you the one to judge what's a pointless exercise? Do you even know her motives, any other than guessing? 

    Btw, if you don't like the way the system works you should talk to your congressman, isn't it what you keep telling others?
      November 30, 2016 11:02 PM MST
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  • 13277
    Just as you are, I'm one to give my opinion. But opinions are like a**holes - everybody has one. And there's no judgment here - there's an incontrovertible reality that Trump won the election and no recount will change that. What Gail Collins wrote in today's NY Times shows why with friends like Jill Stein, you don't need enemies:

    "Since Stein got only 51,463 votes in Michigan to Trump’s 2,279,543, this would seem like an exercise in … um, futility? Deeply cynical minds think the real goal might just be to increase her donor database — her recount campaign has drawn more than $6 million. But Stein says she wants to demonstrate the need to reform the nation’s extremely messy voting system.

    “It’s a healing and positive thing to examine the vote,” she said in a phone interview.

    Hillary Clinton lost Michigan by 10,704 under the current count. Virtually no one — certainly not the Clinton lawyers — thinks she’s going to make that up in a recount. However, it’s definitely possible Clinton could have gotten 10,705 votes more if Stein had stayed off the ballot in the first place. “Jill Stein is the friend who ruins your wedding but really shows up for you during the divorce,” twittered comedian Morgan Murphy."

      December 1, 2016 8:58 AM MST
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  • 17261
    Such a-hole poetry. Go talk to your congressman to have the rules changed. Take you own advice. Over and out from my side. You are jot bringing anything new to the subject but jabbing around the same old same... Take care. Bye.
      December 1, 2016 9:24 AM MST
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  • 13277
    Unlike you, I'm not looking to have any rules changed. Go to talk to your congressman. The recounts are pointless, and that's all there is to it. I have no idea why you keep going on and on about it.
      December 1, 2016 10:17 AM MST
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  • 3934
    @StuB -- I reiterate that, unless you can present evidence the Stein recount request is in some way different from the dozens of other recount requests (and actual recounts) in our recent political history, it makes others wonder what your real motives are.

    Every justification you've given so far COULD have been applied to, for example,  the Al Franken senate bid in 2008 (and the demands for recounting then).  The Franken vote was recounted, nothing changed, and we moved on. I see no reason not to grant Stein the same consideration.
      November 30, 2016 11:35 PM MST
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  • 13277
    The real issue is that the election's over and it's time to move on. Clinton could and should put an end to this stuff, but she appears (or is allowing herself to be made to appear) to be every bit the sore loser that folks thought Trump would be had he lost. She's doing nothing to discourage her supporters from continuing to protest and bitch about the outcome so the nation can heal. An important part of our presidential selection process is the loser (or in this case losers) being gracious in defeat to allow for the peaceful transition of power. Even Al Gore, who actually, you know, had a case, got that part right.

    Seems to me that this is more about Stein and her self-serving motives than anything else. Of course she has the right to the recounts, but there's no logical point to them. It's like the scene in "Monty Python's Life of Brian" where the group voted to recognize Stan's right to have babies. John Cleese aptly asked, "What's the point? He hasn't got a womb." One of the others responded that it was about freedom from oppression, and Cleese again had the perfect response - "Freedom from reality, you mean"! It's a perfect analogy - as everyone else moves on, Stein, Clinton et al are in their little bubble, experiencing complete freedom from reality.
      December 1, 2016 5:52 AM MST
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  • 326
    clutching at straws.....move on
      November 30, 2016 12:23 AM MST
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  • 17602
    She is campaigning for 2020.   What happens to the leftover money she has collected, any idea?  All three of her target states' electoral votes would have to 100% flip from Trump to Hillary for this brouhaha to yield change.  She knows that.  I sense the three states are insulted  as well.    Who can listen to and watch her speak?  I tried but about 10 seconds was my limit. This post was edited by Thriftymaid at November 30, 2016 10:54 PM MST
      November 30, 2016 2:03 PM MST
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  • 34305
    She is raising money for herself and the Green party. 
      November 30, 2016 8:29 PM MST
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  • 7939
    The money is going into a separate fund that can only be used for the recounts. 
      November 30, 2016 8:56 PM MST
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  • 2960
    Oh my. I do not know. I don't follow such things too closely. I'm sure it will all be figured out and work out nicely.
      November 30, 2016 8:32 PM MST
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  • 3191
    It is certainly her right to request the recounts.  As all three states must flip to change the outcome, though, something everyone seems to agree is a looooooooooooooong shot, it is really a futile exercise.  There may be some political repercussions from this, however.  My state (Michigan) surprisingly rejected Clinton in both the primary and the general elections, albeit by very narrow margins.  Taxpayers here will foot the bill for the bulk of the cost of the recount.  (Hopefully this will prompt a change in the law regarding recounts.)  Clinton's backing of Stein's call for the recounts may cause voters here to further distance themselves from the Democrats.  
      December 1, 2016 11:02 AM MST
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