The basis of your claim is that somehow God could not or would not do anything about Lucifer. So, either God is not all-powerful...or He's a jerk....;-D...
Where is the Babylonian dynasty now? [Who is this lucifer? the expression "shining one," or "lucifer," is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the israelites to pronounce as a "proverbial saying against the king of Babylon." thus, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the BabylonIan dynasty. that the description "shining one" is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement : "down to the Grave you will be brought." this grave is the place abided by mankind-not a place occupied by Satan the devil. moreover, those seeing lucifer brought into this condition ask: "is this the man that was agitating earth?" clearly, lucifer refers to a human, not a spirit creature. Isaiah 14:4,15,16]
@WW -- While I think your point about the origins of many of the stories attributed to the Abrahamic God is valid, in my view it does NOT excuse contemporary Christians from facing up to the fundamental contradiction in their beliefs.
As I've noted elsewhere, if God is All-Powerful, then He ***could*** obliterate Satan/The Devil/Whatever and end evil and suffering in the world. Clearly, God has not done so.
The problem, of course, for contemporary Christians is facing up to this fundamental contradiction will cause their belief system to fold like a house of cards, because the explanations which emerge from facing it are:
A) God is NOT All-Powerful...at which point one has to figure out what other limitations there are to His omnipotence.
B) God is NOT All-Loving...at which point one has to admit God is a jerk
C) God has His own reasons for NOT smiting The Devil...in which case one has to ask what those reasons might be, and the Holy Books are not much help (Saying God is waiting for the Anti-Christ to appear doesn't explain WHY he is waiting)
D) God is very different from the way the Holy Books describe him, hence His unfathomable reluctance to kick Satan's heiny
E) God doesn't exist
None of those are very statisfying realizations for someone who strongly believes God has particular characteristics.
Define Christianity. The Bible (Paul) says that there would be an apostasy after the death of the apostles. Jesus spoke of the wheat and the weeds. Whoever has been lying to you is not any part of true Christianity (Wheat like Christians).
In other words, God is NOT omnipotent/omniscient. If God is waiting for the "trial" to be completed, then he doesn't know the evidence or know the outcome ahead of time.
"In other words, God is NOT omnipotent/omniscient. If God is waiting for the "trial" to be completed, then he doesn't know the evidence or know the outcome ahead of time."
Obviously you didn't HUMBLY read the article with an OPEN MIND and come up with that response. It's not about what God knows or how much power that he has. The article never questioned what he knows or not or how powerful he is or not. Actually God being omniscient would be a whole nother subject as he created us with free will. He could have created us as robots and control every decision we make or likely look at us and know every decision we will make as we are if he wanted to. Him doing so would contradict what He has given us in the Bible. When you watch a recorded movie do you watch the end first to see the outcome of every character just because you can? If someone else did not, would you argue that they don't have that ability because they didn't do it?
"What other limitations does God have?" Such sarcasm.
EDIT: Take care
This post was edited by texasescimo at December 6, 2016 1:44 AM MST
@TX -- No, I'm VERY humble. I'm so humble I'm deeply confused how an omniscient omnipotent God could need a "trial" for evidence to be presented over time. My brain is not capable of reconciling these contradictions.
Nor am I sarcastic. You suggested God has to wait for the "trial" to be completed before he can wipe out the Devil/banish evil and suffering. That's a limitation on his omnipotenence. So, I'm genuinely curious what other limitations there are on the power of God. What else can He not do?
And how does your current inability to reconcile what you see as contradictions affect whether or not they are in fact contradictions in an area that is admittedly beyond our comprehension?
The attributes that can accurately be predicated of God will not be determined by the majority vote (or even the electoral college of the angels).
This post was edited by tom jackson at December 8, 2016 3:24 PM MST
Against my better judgement, I will try to answer. (Generally I get nothing but insults when I try to give Bible based answers.) Jehovah God did not create Satan the Devil as such as the true God does not act wickedly. (Job 34:10) So listen to me, you men of understanding: It is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly, For the Almighty to do wrong!
Just as the Israelites when they rebelled acted on their own accord, so did the Devil. (Deuteronomy 32:5) They are the ones who have acted corruptly. They are not his children, the defect is their own. They are a crooked and twisted generation!
Satan was not always a Satan (Opposer) and Devil (Slanderer). Originally, he was a great Angel that stood fast in the truth, Cherub to be exact. (John 8:44) You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
The first sinner and the king of Tyre. Human sin and imperfection were, of course, preceded by sin and imperfection in the spirit realm, as Jesus’ words at John 8:44 and the account in chapter 3 of Genesis reveal. The dirge recorded at Ezekiel 28:12-19, though directed to the human “king of Tyre,” evidently parallels the course taken by the spirit son of God who first sinned. The pride of “the king of Tyre,” his making himself ‘a god,’ his being called a “cherub,” and the reference to “Eden, the garden of God,” certainly correspond to Biblical information concerning Satan the Devil, who became puffed up with pride, is linked to the serpent in Eden, and is called “the god of this system of things.”—1Ti 3:6; Ge 3:1-5, 14, 15; Re 12:9; 2Co 4:4.
Here's a couple of articles any sincere ones can read or listen to that should answer some questions:
Taking the higher ground without humility will keep you right where you are at. You say that there are only two options that you allow so all discussion is out the window by your standards, yes?
@TX -- No, there are several options. I listed some of them elsewhere in this thread. If you can name one I didn't think of, I'm willing to consider it.
However, I ask that you express them in your own plain English words. If you wish to quote Scripture as support of your own ideas, fine. But just quoting Numbers 14:7 and claiming it answers the question almost never actually answers the question.
I'm not searching for your contradictions to your post here where you only gave TWO POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVES: "Again, either God is NOT All-Powerful, or He's a jerk. Which is it?"
EDIT: Take care
This post was edited by texasescimo at December 6, 2016 1:29 AM MST
God created all things and knew what the result would be in everything he created. All knowing means just that. There are many things I am thankful for, but creating Satan is not one of them. Creating him was a cruel joke to play on the people he is supposed to love.
Autumnleaves 