How would you feel about government spying on you collecting data on your lifestyle/purchases/interests and having a dossier on you? WHY?

I have heard this opinion before, and respectfully, I think you miss the big picture. To say they can look if they want to, I have nothing to hide. Which sounds very sensible of course. But where does it start or end. Don't you have a right to privacy? What if some agency wants to regulate how you raise your kids because they want to make sure you're not teaching them terrorists ideas? Still?  Ok How bout a zealous state that want to make sure you're not a sexual pervert and wants to monitor your bedroom activities?
The argument they can look I have nothing to hide, sort of equates to they can look all they want as long as they don't come to close.

LOL respectfully I think you miss the big picture but then again you come from a country where they DO mistreat their own people and where paranoia is king and where dirty tricks are rife with spies in every closet..  

All the things you cite, aka my idea of paranoia cos it wouldnt happen here.. we have free press we have freedom of information acts so we can spy on the govt and organisations.. and we have safeguards to stop exactly the things you mention.. I erm DID address these issues in previous posts..  In particular as I said we would have NO NEED TO check whether people are perverts cos WE have an open attitude to sex and sexuality..we talk about it freely.. you are welcome to disclose these things on job applications and it WONT be held against you.. cos it's illegal to do that..

I have already addressed where it ends.. see we Brits are a well educated fair bunch.. we tell our people things, we make sure they know what data is held about them and why.. it's hardly my fault if you come from a country where you all HAVE to mistrust your own govt and companies and where you don't have rules and fair play to protect ya.. 

I've done a load of things that might count me in a country where they do discriminate but they dont here so they can come as close as they like.. cos nothing, not even sexual preference will count against me here.. well unless I were a child molestor and to be honest sorry they shouldnt be allowed to hide

Right . . . 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_Kingdom

and . . .

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-use-of-surveillance-drones-is-probably-illegal-9789296.html 

or

https://www.privacyinternational.org/node/150

And I've seen a report or two about local jurisdictions in GB actually using the camera system for "non-permitted" uses like catching dog owners not using a "pooper-scooper" in the park and then fining them for that horrible offense.


So yeah, your position seems legit, if you change "well educated" to "well subjugated". Just sayin'

and you are the expert right? you read a few articles.. the independent is kinda like your trashy magazines not respected..   You have exactly the same things and more happen but somehow think it's worse here..delusion? WE KNOW ABOUT what happens here.. and yes, for the most part Brits are well educated and witness that we are told.. we KNEW about the dog fouling.. it's illegal.. why wouldnt we want people who do that caught? You think it's ok to spread dog shit everywhere that can cause blindness in children? Ok well you go for it but we don't and it's illegal but EXACTLY as i said.. the kinds of laws they catch people for on camera etc  are MINOR>. you are hardly gonna get locked away for years for letting your dog shit everywhere..  so get real!  Its as i say..  at best its UNCOMMON.. at worse we GET this stuff reported .. unlike there where YOUR people seem to be saying you dont know what the govt and orgs do with your info.. soo.. think I'll stick with a place where there are controls on what they do with the info..  a persistent dog fouling issue is something people KNOW is illegal.. all exactly as I said.

I'll go look at the other reports but so far nothing has been in opposition to what i say.. and no need to get all American defensive..  lol tell ya what if I keep on saying this stuff you will prob go get your gun and shoot me wont you :P

Right looked at the independent article.. as I say the Independent is kinda like your trashy news channel that relies on sensationalism to sell print pages.. in this article its TELLING US this happens.. it's hardly news.. I've never seen a drone.. i dont know anyone who has.. but as the article says they are ON THE CASE.. it cites that we have regulations it cites that it's probably illegal. it aint like we have secretive spies doing this stuff and not telling anyone.. we have data protection rules, we have privacy laws and we have the freedom of information act so we can spy on what the govt is doing.. DO you have equivalent?? do you have articles telling your people what's happening?? Admitting what is colllected about you?? 

Re the privacy international article... no idea who they are.. but happy to have surveillance cams these things are used to detect crime and i dont know about you but if my daughter were walking down a street one night and got attacked I'd bloody well hope there was cctv of it so the assole can be caught.. again if someone is being a baddy I HOPE THEY GET CAUGHT>. these kinds of crime are not minior and they arent the kind people únwittingly commit.. I am happy to appear on cam.. it's often used to trace last steps of missing children or teens.. and you need to get a grip.. they arent' everywhere.. they are in specific places.. I have them at work .. i work nights.. and you know what.. I am more than happy to be on cam.. if some nasty goit comes in and attacks me I WANT people to be monitoring that footage! I CAN tell you that mostly they wipe over it.. its not like they keep it forever  or ther'd be tons of it.. there isnt and what usually happens is that the crime, if not reported quickly isnt on cam as they wiped over it.. even so I LIKE it.. 

I think the thing is Brits are reasonable people.. not given to paranoia and happy to have criminals caught..  

I am sure the well subjugated was an insult.. well back at ya I'd rather be well informed and well educated than be in a situation where most of the population cannot name where India is on a map.. 

P S I didn't look at the wikipedia one.. I never look at wiki anything.. bunch of tossers who make things up at the drop of a hat.. most sane people wouldnt be relying on wiki anything its the least respectd of all resouces

And i just noticed, did you? that the privacy international blurb was 1996 lol i think you need to check up to date information!  that was 10 years ago.. they were calling for improved regs on what can be done with the footage.. do you know if the regs have been updated? no you dont  This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at January 12, 2017 2:53 PM MST

That is certainly one way to look at it.

Thank you for your reply DdbTD and Happy Friday to thee. So during the days of J. Edgar Hoover you would have had no problem having your entire life available in black and white for folks to read? I dunno. I used to think like that. I no longer do. Invasion of privacy is a terrible thing. Info can be MANUFACTURED and presented as if it were true. How many innocent people are in jail?  How many innocent people executed due to TRUMPED up crap? You have no control over what goes in those files. None.I think living in a Gestapo world as Trump is insisting we do will not be good for anyone, especially the innocent.  He and Nixon..vindictive first and foremost. Obsessed with enemies lists and revenge and retaliation. Scary times ahead.  Buckle up.

Sorry Rosie.. you need to remember we don't really know or care about J Edgar Hoover..I vaguely recognise the name but it isn't relevant to me or the UK.. but yea.. i think the thing is things ARE different here.. we are SO used to freedom and our rights that we just don't have the same level of paranoia about it that Americans seem to have... and i mean this in a non accusatory way.. It doesn't happen here.. we have rules and we have the data commissioner.. and we can complain and it DOES work.. we get protected.. Ive complained a time or two.. we can SEE anything ANYONE holds about us.. freedom of information Act and Data protection.. and there are rules on how they can store, share and use this information.. 

I think we seem a whole lot freer about stuff.. I have NO probs with reading about my life in black and white.. and believe me its VERY interesting and NOT run of the mill.. but i have no prob with it a) cos there is NO WAY it would ever happen and b) because we don't have to hide about sex and sexuality.. no one's going to judge me for all the stuff I have done... we are VERY liberal here re sex and sexuality..  so since i wont be judged..

AND there is NO way I'd get thrown in jail for something I didnt do on manufactured evidence.. we dont DO that kind of thing here.. we are horribly fair and reasonable.. if you are in the right here then you WILL shine through.. lawyers can check stuff.. any evidence I can see before the trial and so can my lawyer.. and we can challenge it and prove it's wrong.. we just dont hav that kind of stuff here...  

You need to remember too that we DONT execute people here.. EVER.. and there are many times when people falsely accused get their conviction overturned and they get compensation. this is a fair place to live.. we are all very confident in our rights and protections... 

See? we DO have control.. cos we can SEE it.. it's the law.. we have the right to see ANYTHING written or said or stored about us ANYWHERE>. even if it's the police or govt.. data protection and freedom of information and human rights.. we have so much protection that we just DONT worry about that stuff... we have no need or place for conspiracy theories.. everythign is about transparency 

I get what you are saying but.. since for the very vast majority of us there are never any consequences of our blabbing and actions - it doesn't impede our thoughts or actions..  I always think that if they have the time and resources to spy on me and analyse it - they must have nothing better to do... and we would hope they do have lots better to do 

Well, it's not about time.  It's data bases that store it, so no one is really wasting time, the databases just hold it if someone wants to queue it up.

The threat isn't necessarily to you and me directly.   I'm sure I'll personally hit the lotto before I'm blackbagged and hauled off.  It's the dissenters, the whistleblowers, and that type that is the danger to us all. We need and benefit from them. The precedent of that kind of unchecked authority is the threat.   Plus, most of us are doing something wrong but we don't realize it.   If we don't stand against now while we aren't doing something wrong, we pay a severe price if and when what we are saying or doing is made against the law.   It's these abstract consequences that I see a flaw in the argument of " if you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about."  there's truth to it, but there is always the threat that we will be made into criminals.

Or say you just happen to make a name for yourself legally but it rubs the wrong powerful person the wrong way.   That info can used to start a smear campaign   by taking things out of context or just publishing your something like your legal and consented kinks.


I hate to talk about Trumo again just because I'm tired of his name, but take him for example.  You acknowledge he's not above dirty tricks and he's an at all cost kinda guy.  He is clearly opposed to certain groups.  Some of them for little good reason.   Well all that data that has been being collected and stored?  Is now part of his possible arsenal.  So what happens when data is collected during the safe times, buit is now there for when the wicked come into power?  What about the unknown jack-ass who works in the " business" who just has a chip on his shoulder and has little moral conviction against using it for his gain?

So it's not just about you and I being handcuffed and detained. That's not what I really worry about.   Plus I hold that a basic right in a free society is the right to privacy when there is no warrant issued against you.  It goes against the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" IMO.

It's a ticking time bomb in my views.

I get what you are saying.. i just feel no threat to me personally... lol everyone knows my kinks - i just tell everyone and since only I judge me I don't much care what others think..   I think that others would struggle to get access to most of the data about me.. and I am sure there's loads.. but most of my enemies are going to be plebs like me.. they wont be able to get access.. and here, lol much as you are always saying we don't have freedom, we have a lot of checks..we have a data commissioner which tells organisations which info they can hold and can't hold and how they can use it.. we can prosecute if they get info they shouldn't or use it in a way they shouldnt...  most people like employers arent going to be able access most of the stuff even.. and here, because we are more open about sex and sexuality, (not being a religious country) no one much cares if you are gay, bi etc.. you can openly be so and it wouldnt afffect anything..  

I still think that if i unintentionally did something illegal it's going to be able to be argued as without realising it and its not going to be serious.. and same for most.. but the ones who are being baddies.. i kinda would want them to be caught.. SO while I do see your point.. i dont think still that it does affect any freedom of most people providing there remain proper checks and regulations on who can access the info and what they do with it.. .

PS... i have a criminal records check done on me cos I work with kids.. it also checks I haven't abused any kids.. i kinda LIKE that they can check that about people.. don't want convicted child abusers or even those who have committed crimes working with kids.. 

It's a balancing act for sure.  Neutering all ability isn't the solution or a good thing either. Yet I don't think data collecting and spying on all should be by  default.  Being alive just isn't enough reason to be watched in my mind.


Over here at least, "ignorance of the law is never a valid excuse" for us common folk.

This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at January 12, 2017 11:28 AM MST

Ignorance of the law isn't a protection here but we are a fairly well educated country overall and so most, if not all of us know what's illegal here and what isnt... so the chances of inadvertently breaking the law are pretty slim and to be very, very honest the kinds of law you could break without knowing it are hardly going to be serious crime so aren't really going to set the world alight ... and unlikely to land you in prison. 

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00505UZ4G/ref=nosim/0sil8

Ok cool. I can't really comment on what goes on there.. I am here to learn about America and Americans, I have been informally learning for 20 years, but more intensively the last year again.  Things are different there.. or so it seems and for all I know the conspiracy theories and scary stories are true there..  

Yeah, the internet makes those seem more common than they really are.

The book is actually more about how nonsensical and convoluted our Federal laws are and how a savvy prosecutor can use that against you and how it does happen.  You'll hear a occasional  critiques from conspiracy nuts about it because it doesn't delve into that BS and conspiracy nuts see it assume it's about spooky plots against whatever.

Well said.

Ditto! I used to think if you're innocent you have nothing to fear. That is bullsh**! Once files are being built you have no control over what lies go into them nor knowledge thereof. Your a** can be hauled into jail and you can rot there all because of phony "evidence". Or you can be executed. It's very scary. Vindictive revengeful and retaliatory people like Trump need to GET BACK AT.  We already know he lies every time he opens his mouth. So do the folks around him. They'd better get with his program and back up his lies or they become the target. This is not good. Not at all. The Trump worshippers have unleashed this monster and all we can do is watch. Not my favorite thing. Thank you for your Jimmy CC and Happy Friday. I'm with you. They can all do go to he**! I'll pay and help them pack and drive them to the airport/train station/bus terminal. They can go to he** in style in a chauffeur-driven limosine! AARRGGHH! :(

Right on!
You bet. Thanks. You, too. :)