Discussion » Questions » Religion and Spirituality » Gently, Brother/Sister, Gently, Pray...will you come to an atheist debate?
Benedict Arnold

Gently, Brother/Sister, Gently, Pray...will you come to an atheist debate?

I just watched a Neil DeGrasse Tyson video, and he told how modern atheism got started.
It was All-Saints-Day in Lisbon, very holy day in the year 1755, and everybody was in church when a HUGE earthquake came. Well the earthquakes are hardest on the tallest buildings - the churches - and so 80,000 people were killed as they worshipped. 

Then a tsunami came, and leveled the rest of Lisbon.
So, led by Voltaire, people started thinking; "Either God is not all powerful or else God is not all that Good either, to let this happen."
And that, according to Neil DeGrasse Tyson, was the beginning of modern atheism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb2Mu2d2ywA&list=PLYi0fCCfA5Ub-HgXHvCRLkSusj1EAh3Y9

* * *
So my question:
If God does not meet our human expectations of what it means to be good, and all-powerful, does that mean there is no God?

Gently, pray Gently...

Posted - February 20, 2017
Tags : None

Responses


  • 7683
    Hi VirginiaL, I saw that you used the word 'gently' twice in your question....I think you haven't been on Answer Bag from which many members have migrated to Answer Mug....religion based questions.....and answers....I'm sorry can never remain.....huh....gentle.....emotions are sparked and temper flares....I've seen that happen on Answer Bag....let's see how your question is received and responded.

    If  I'm allowed to speak for myself, well I would  like to say a few words, religion is nothing but that which shows a path to reach  God. One needn't go to Church, Mosque or Temple, one can pray within the confines of one's home. No one has seen Him or Her,but the belief that 'there is a Supreme Power' keeps me from doing wrong. My Parents  have ingrained into my brain...' even if you can't do good, at least don't do anything bad...and I follow that in every breathe I take, I try not to harm anyone by word,thought or deed...sometimes it's beyond me....but that is   very 'rare'.
     Who has seen God, see God in fellowmen....that's all I say! This post was edited by Veena.K at February 21, 2017 12:27 PM MST
      February 20, 2017 7:04 PM MST
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  • Hi Veena.K!

    You picked up on my trepidation, here...on the one hand, people's views are so valuable as I develop my own philosophy of life...on the other, for me I just can't seem to "get it" when those views are presented with hostility, contempt or aggression...thus I request the gentleness...helps me to assimilate/contemplate the answers.

    And no, I missed the experience of AnswerBag. I stumbled on Ask.com in 2010 looking for AskJeeves, and then was on Blurtit for a while.

    And I must say, your answer is very full, touching my heart...ty
      February 21, 2017 9:46 AM MST
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  • 7683
    I'm amazed VirginiaL, there's no hostility or contempt in the responses you received for your question. I am so impressed. Umm thanks dear for your kind words!
      February 21, 2017 7:16 PM MST
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  • Veena, while I agree one can pray at home too if one wants to, and I mostly do pray at home,  the architecture, atmosphere and ambience in a place of worship is more conducive to contemplation. Although I dispute claims that prayer in a place of worship is more effective than prayer at home, speaking for myself at least I feel a greater serenity and calm after praying in a fire-temple, than at home with a myriad distractions and disturbances. 
      February 21, 2017 12:29 PM MST
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  • 7683
    Hi Wisdom Tooth, most places of worship do have magnificent architecture and ambience. I agree too that one finds calm and tranquility descending on them whilst they are worshipping there. I've never been to a fire temple, I've only visited Hindu temples. In fact I've visited Bascilica of Bom Jesus, in Goa and the famous Dargah in Ajmer. My parents taught me religious tolerance, India is a country with a massive population and people professing all religions co-exist although occasionally there are communal disturbances.
    i dislike it when I hear about corruption seeping into places of worship, there's corruption, it is bound to happen, human greed after all....that is why I emphasized that one can worship within the confines of their home.
      February 21, 2017 7:32 PM MST
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  • Hello Virginial,
    I have the whole Lisbon incident very vividly described in "The End of the World - A History" by Otto Friedrich. 
    It describes calamities and catastrophes, natural and man-made, which for some local population meant the end of the world.
    Other catastrophes include The Black Death, The Sack of Rome, The Birth of the Inquisition, The Kingdom of Auschwitz, among pothers.
    A real gem of a book. I've had it now for perhaps 30 years.
    Wiz
      February 20, 2017 8:19 PM MST
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  • Oh Wisdom Tooth!
    Your comments...this is where I have been appreciating the history so much.
    I think it was Barbara Tuchman, history writer - describing the Black Death, where 10,000 Londoners died...people thought the end of the world was indeed nigh, and...the number 666 in the Bible...people thought the End of The World would come in the year 1666!

    Rather puts our modern terrifying times into perspective...
    So, ty, I am putting the Friedrich book onto my reading list!
      February 21, 2017 9:54 AM MST
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  • I just checked our local library system and they DO have this book by Otto Friedrich; THE GRAVE OF ALICE B. TOKLAS...so I requested it, and then can prolly get The End of the World through interlibrary loan...looking forward to these, ty! This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at February 21, 2017 10:41 AM MST
      February 21, 2017 10:40 AM MST
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  • WT, I just went to Goodreads...and, have you read other books by Otto Friedrich?
    Turns out he also has written a biography of Glenn Gould...the eccentric Canadian pianist...ima read that, too!
      February 21, 2017 10:51 AM MST
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  • No, Virginia, the only book I've read by Otto Friedrich is The End of the World. I like his wrting style, so I guess his other books would indeed make interesting reading.
    I know of Glenn Gould - i have his Bach Well tempered Klavier - but I didn't know he was eccentric. In what way? 
      February 21, 2017 11:10 AM MST
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  • Okay Wisdom Tooth, ima tell you some of stranger ideas I am playing with...
    Because Glenn Gould was VERY eccentric; for instance, the heat of summer in Florida, he would be out in the park all wrapped up in his wool coat, wool muffler and mittens...he retired from giving piano concerts at the age of 31 or so, and just rented out the basement of a hotel and set up his recording studio there, giving the world the kind of Bach recordings you have...

    I think there may be people who come into the world for a special work, they do that work and then they don't stay very long. One example is Anna Sewell, author of BLACK BEAUTY, the novel about horses that changed the way horses were treated...died soon after the book's completion.

    Well Glenn Gould went to Russia in the middle of the Cold War, and just played his music and brought heart to all the oppressed artists there...then he died age 50, in 1982. Just before he turned fifty, he told a friend "I don't think I will live much past my 50th birthday." Had a massive stroke two weeks after the b'day...never woke up from it.

    I think we may never understand the contribution of people like Gould to the end of the Cold War, in other words...
      February 21, 2017 8:10 PM MST
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  • 13395
    Too many reasons to discuss why I do not and do not have to believe in supernatural God creator. 
    Although it can be an interesting challenge when theists claim 'there MUST be a God BECAUSE...
      February 21, 2017 8:47 AM MST
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  • Hi Virginia, I suspect my presence here might be unsurprising to most.

    In response to your question:
    No; this in itself does not mean there is no god, it might only indicate that He (note the inherent masculine pronoun, product of the history of paternal bias in religion) is merely indifferent, perhaps impotent or worse, malevolent. 

    The qualities of gods have always coincided in lockstep with the ideals of the people who revere them. When such unfathomable events or tragedies occur, then God is mysterious, God is angry, and surely we are to blame. Its part of the plan, but He is unfailingly blameless.

    Ever see the tornado or tsunami victims on TV who, despite losing their homes, towns, livelihoods and even friends or loved ones, Thank their God (the loving, all-powerful director of all things) they are still alive, only to endure the aftermath? Is it then only proper to thank an arsonist for burning our house down, if we survive the blaze? Ironic to the extreme. 


    This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at February 22, 2017 6:43 AM MST
      February 21, 2017 3:05 PM MST
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  • Dearest Zee,
    Well I am sitting here trying to think of an intelligent response, but you know what...all I can really do is agree with your points...

    You know what, I actually love teasing you about something, but it is something I do also and something I treasure...so precious, I think...and that is...that truth/authenticity is where you find it.
    As you know, even though I am a bit more of a theist these days, I still cherish the great non-theist and secular thinkers.

    And I did appreciate Neil DeGrasse Tyson...a fine thinker, quality information.
      February 21, 2017 8:00 PM MST
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  • I agree, Virginia. Great thinkers are well represented on either side of this discussion, but authenticity, ergo truth, is a point of judgment, in my view. What leads each of us to validate a particular position within our own purview. 

    I thought to present ideas that communicate a rational (and civil) non-theist take on the God question. This is, as you might know, a topic which has occupied my study and inquiry for decades. That you, as a thoughtful respondent from a different perspective, can find so much agreement in these intentionally plain observations is a sign of their inherent validity. Perhaps groundwork for future discussion. This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at February 22, 2017 6:43 AM MST
      February 21, 2017 8:43 PM MST
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  • Zee...ima jump in right now, maybe...

    ...because I have been discussing with Dozy, I don't think GOD was ever intended to be the point of religion. I think the original purpose of religion, was to make sense of life - more along the lines of philosophy. The God stuff got put in somehow because of authoritarian tendencies in our cultures...

    The Buddha for example, I have read that he was trying to strip away the unnecessary fluff from Hinduism (i.e. maybe all the gods that people were taking too literally), and get back to basics.

    So Buddhism is kinda/sorta atheist, but they don't really demand you "believe" in atheism, they just recommend against the concept of God because historically it has proven an obstacle too often...they leave you free, as you know I love the Buddhists!

    So why do I myself use the concept of God? 
    Well 30 years atheism gave me the freedom to do that - I don't feel now that I have to buy into anybody else's agenda of God's instructions to me. I am passionate by nature and life for is intimate and so personal, so "God" fits my personality...useful for me to find my own way.
    And if the religious folks get pushing too hard, I can relapse into atheism REALLY quick, too...and have done so... This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at February 22, 2017 4:37 AM MST
      February 21, 2017 9:06 PM MST
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  • Indeed. I too, hold great esteem for Buddhism, and it is essentially Atheist in its tenets because all references to deities are left out. Some really profound stuff in there. 
    I also agree about God(s) being inserted into faith concepts about the deeper questions religion was initially intended to address. We return to de Grasse Tyson's ststement about the "ever receding pockets of scientific ignorance". In the absence of science, that is to say, before science, God(s) were in greater force and prevalence to answer those things we lacked the tools to otherwise attain the truth of.
    This is one revelation that opened the door to my own dismissal of deities, I've not been convinced otherwise to date. 
      February 22, 2017 4:44 AM MST
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  • Might Lord Buddha have formulated his philosophy to free man from the shackles of fatalism he had grown to be bound by so strongly, and instill in him a sense of self-reliance, self-worth and a self-responsibility for his deeds and the consequences thereof, that he might learn to take his life in his own hands, and accept his suffering with dignity as an inescapable given in his life?
      February 22, 2017 7:34 PM MST
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  • The Buddha would never have allowed himself to be deified in name or reputation, he was clearly and self-admittedly a man, a teacher and a philosopher. 
    The tenets of his Buddhism proscribe the paths away from suffering, that the causes of suffering are conquerable from within. It would be hard to name a more dignified exercise of humanity and personal responsibility than the devout adherence to Buddhism. I'd invite you to peruse the minutia of this philosophy more deeply. This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at February 23, 2017 10:16 AM MST
      February 22, 2017 8:07 PM MST
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  • The appellation "Lord" is my way of expressing respect for the man, who was essentially of princely descent. There has been no intention on my part of deifying him, or proposing that he be deified. This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at February 23, 2017 10:16 AM MST
      February 22, 2017 8:59 PM MST
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  • I am pleased that you brought that up, it actually had me thinking along the lines of Lord Vader....

    Siddhartha Gautama was indeed a prince, raised in a lush palace, only to part with all of it to seek his understanding. I don't know if you have had the opportunity to explore some Buddhist ideology, its "enlightening" for lack of a better term. 
      February 22, 2017 9:09 PM MST
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  • Being a Zoroastrian by faith, brought up in a Jesuit school, together with what little reading I've done on comparative religion, I've had only a smattering introduction to Buddhism. But I shall certainly take you up on your advice to delve deeper into Buddhist philosophy. 
      February 22, 2017 11:07 PM MST
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  • Zoroastrian? Fascinating. A faith that, in my opinion, gets too little recognition from later faiths that copped some of its tenets as their own. Nice talkig with you, WT...
      February 23, 2017 7:26 AM MST
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  • Likewise, Z
      February 23, 2017 7:55 AM MST
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  • To be fair, I have seen many people thank god for still being alive after a tragedy.
      February 22, 2017 8:52 AM MST
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