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Discussion » Questions » Religion and Spirituality » Did Muhammad really marry Aisha at age 6 and deflower her at age 9? If true, how almost two billion Muslims?
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Did Muhammad really marry Aisha at age 6 and deflower her at age 9? If true, how almost two billion Muslims?

Posted - March 10, 2018
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  • 46117
    What?
    If true, how almost two billion Muslims?

    What do you think, there were none until he came?  Then he had sex with a baby and up sprang a religion?

    How old do you think half of the people in the BIBLE were?  Do you think Mohammed got this idea all by his lonesome?

    Half the inbreds in your precious Bible were very underage before they consented to sex or did not consent.




    This post was edited by WM BARR . =ABSOLUTE TRASH at March 11, 2018 4:03 PM MDT
      March 10, 2018 5:02 PM MST
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  • 2657
    Quote: [...What do you think, there were none until he came?  Then he had sex with a baby and up sprang a religion?
    How old do you think half of the people in the BIBLE were?  Do you think Mohammed got this idea all by his lonesome?
    Half the inbreds in your precious Bible were very underage before they consented to sex or did not consent.]

    How about quoting a verse?

    Having sex with a little girl is sick rather in the Bible or not and someone else doing it first doesn't make it right. 
    As far as the Bible, this is how I read:
    (1 Corinthians 7:36) But if anyone thinks he is behaving improperly by remaining unmarried, and if he is past the bloom of youth, then this is what should take place: Let him do what he wants; he does not sin. Let them marry.
    This post was edited by my2cents at March 11, 2018 9:01 AM MDT
      March 10, 2018 5:38 PM MST
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  • 46117
    But what if reading The Bible was aimed at children? What if those horrific stories were sugar-coated and taught to kids?

    That’s the gist behind Kind Little Rivka, a “beautifully illustrated account of how Abraham’s trusted servant Eliezer chose Rivka to be Isaac’s wife — all because of her kindness.”

    image: https://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/im/THq0iVP.jpg

    Just one thing: When Rivka (a.k.a. Rebekah) was chosen to be Isaac’s wife, she was only three-years-old.

    Eliyahu Federman can’t believe the book just glosses over that little fact:

    It turns out this book was glorifying an underage marriage — and I was shocked by its content and images.

    The book begins innocuously enough. “One day, when Rivka was three years old, she decided to go down to the well ….”

    Next, it takes a creepy turn:

    That very same day … a man named Eliezer began walking with ten camels … The camels were loaded with bags full of presents; shiny golden bracelets … and just about anything a little girl could want… Eliezer was looking for a kind and special girl to be a wife for Yitzchak… ‘When I find the right girl, she will get all of these wonderful presents,’ thought Eliezer.

    When Eliezer gets to the well there is a disturbing illustration of a grown man stroking his beard glaring at several small children at the well.

    He wonders, according to the dialogue, “Which one will be the right wife for Yitzchak?”

    If my daughter sees a grown man with “shiny golden bracelets” staring at her by a well, she should run and scream. This is a scenario we teach our children to avoid, not one we highlight as acceptable.

    Federman spoke with the book’s author, who doesn’t really see the problem with any of this:

    [Dina] Rosenfeld said in an email interview that the question of age-appropriateness had never come up before — and claimed that the child was only selected for marriage at age three, and is not actually wed at that young age.

    That’s… umm… not any better. We would easily demonize any old man who selected a three-year-old child for marriage… but, in the context of the Bible, it’s seen as perfectly normal.

    This is just another example of how the Bible distorts the idea of morality. We shouldn’t look to it as any sort of ultimate authority on virtue because it fails at it time and time again.


    by Taboola

      March 10, 2018 5:09 PM MST
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  • 2657
    Read the Bible instead of parroting misinformation about it.
      March 15, 2018 7:27 PM MDT
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  • 46117
    In Biblical times people were married at a very young age. Girls were usually betrothed before they reached puberty – majority of the time the marriage would have consummated when the girl reached puberty, and that was usually between the ages of 8, 9 or older,(Note: when a girl reached puberty prior to the 20th century, she was considered to be an adult in most cultures/societies). In this article I will mostly quote Scholarly sources to prove that marriage in ancient Israelite times took place at a very young age, sometimes the girls who were married off were pre-pubescent. There was no law against a pre-pubescent girl being married off. Actually as you will read further, you will come to realise that the Mishnah gave approval for a Man to have intercourse to a betrothed girl, any-time after the age of three years old.

    Related Articles:
    12 year old Mary’s marriage with 90 year old Joseph the Carpenter
    Bible sanctions pre-pubescent marriages (child marriage)
    Age of Consent in European & American History

    Isaac’s wife was Rebecca, mother of Jacob, and Esua. According to calculations made by Rabbi Solomon Itzhaki (A.K.A. Rashi a well-known respected Jewish Scholar), Rebecca was three years old when she married Isaac.

    1. Rashi’s commentary on Genesis 25:20 says:
    forty years old: For when Abraham came from Mount Moriah, he was informed that Rebecca had been born. Isaac was then thirty-seven years old, for at that time Sarah died, and from the time that Isaac was born until the “Binding” [of Isaac], when Sarah died, were thirty-seven years, for she was ninety years old when Isaac was born, and one hundred and twenty-seven when she died, as it is stated (above 23:1): “The life of Sarah was [a hundred and twenty-seven years.”] This makes Isaac thirty-seven years old, and at that time, Rebecca was born. He waited for her until she would be fit for marital relations-three years-and then married her.— [From Gen. Rabbah 57:1
    [Retrieved it from this website: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8220/showrashi/true]

    2. Also Johann Buxtorf cites Rashi that Rebecca was three years old when she married Isaac.

    “Rabbi Solomon in his comment on Genesis, says that Rebecca, when she was married to Isaac, was but three Years of Age. His words run thus, ‘When Abraham was come from Mount Moria, he received the joyful News of Rebecca. Isaac was at that Time Thirty seven years old; and then did Sarah die. The time, from birth of Isaac to the death of Sarah, was Thirty seven Years, And Sarah was Ninety Years old when Isaac was born; and One Hundred and Twenty Seven Years old when she died: As it is said in Gen 23:1 . Sarah was one hundred and twenty-seven years old. Behold, the Age of Isaac was Thirty Seven Years, at the Time of the Birth of Rebecca. And when he had waited for her three Years, till she was fit for marriage, he took her to wife.”
    According to this Account, Rebecca was a very notable Girl at three years of age. But that a girl of three Years old is fit for marriage, is maintained very plainly in the Jewish writings; particularly, in Emek Hamelech, in the following passage, ‘our blessed sags, of blessed memory, say, that a female is not fit for marriage, ‘till she is arrived at the Age of three years and one day.’ The Talmud supports these Sages here, in the part entitled Avoda Sara. And the Sanhedrin says, A daughter, who is of the age of three years and one day, is, by being bedded with a Man, lawfully married.” [1]

    Before going any further, one of the objections raised by some Jewish and most Christian Apologist is that they say, “how can a three year old fetch water out of a well?” They further say, “a girl of that age could not do that she must be a lot older than three.” These statements do not disapprove anything. The way they make it seem, as if it is impossible for a girl to pull 1, 2 letters of water. Any three old girl could pull 1, 2 letters of water out of a well.

    3. In addition to what we have already brought forth on Isaac’s marriage to Rebecca, The Zohar, which is Translated/Commentary by Daniel Chanan Matt also makes mention that Isaac married Rebecca when she was three years old.

    51. “She was three years old when he embraced her the youngest legal age a female can be-married. See M Niddah 5:4; Seder Olam Rabbah 1; Soferim, add. 1:4 Rashi on Genesis 25:20 Tosafot, Yevamot 61b, s.v. ve-khen; sekhe; Tov, Genesis 24:14.
    Rebekah’s three years correspond to the three colors of the rainbow.
    52. He engendered at sixty, generating fittingly… see Genesis 25:26. When Isaac fathered Jacob he was sixty years old, symbolizing the full sextet of sefirot from hesed through Yesod, thereby ensuring that Jacob would be complete. [2]

    As you have read it is quite clear, a fact that Rebecca married Isaac when she was three years old. Furthermore, we have more evidence from Judaic Holy Book ‘Mishnah’, it gives more weight to the above references that girls as young as three years old were allowed to be betrothed by intercourse at the age of three. Although in Ancient Hebrew marriages girls were recommend to be married at the age of 12, there are laws in the Mishnah that give approval that once betrothed you can have sexual intercourse any-time after the age of three years old.

    4. Jacob Neusner is an American academic scholar of Judaism. In the Book: ‘The Comparative Hermeneutics of Rabbinic Judaism: Seder Tohorot. Tohorot through Uqsin.’ The Jewish oral Torah i.e. Mishnah states,

    M. 5:4 A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are laible on her account because of the law [Prohibiting intercourse with] a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her [when she is menstruating] to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer. [If] she was married to a priest, she eats heave offering. [If] one of those who are unfit [for marriage] has intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into priesthood. [If] one of all those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility. [3]
      March 10, 2018 5:24 PM MST
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  • 2657
    I thought I replied to this?
    I would love to see the scriptures that say what your post says.

    Here's the first two mentions of Rebekah both before Isaac even ever heard of her. Can a three year old really draw enough water from a well for camels?
    (Genesis 22:23) Be·thuʹel became the father of Re·bekʹah. Milʹcah bore these eight to Naʹhor the brother of Abraham.
    (Genesis 24:15-20) Even before he finished speaking, Re·bekʹah, who was the daughter of Be·thuʹel the son of Milʹcah the wife of Naʹhor, Abraham’s brother, came out with her water jar on her shoulder. 16 Now the young woman was very beautiful, a virgin; no man had had sexual relations with her. She went down to the spring, filled her water jar, and then came back up. 17 At once the servant ran to meet her and said: “Please give me a little sip of water from your jar.” 18 In turn she said: “Drink, my lord.” With that she quickly lowered her jar upon her hand and gave him a drink. 19 When she finished giving him a drink, she said: “I will also draw water for your camels until they are done drinking.” 20 So she quickly emptied her jar into the drinking trough and ran again and again to the well to draw water, and she kept drawing water for all his camels.
      April 1, 2018 11:57 AM MDT
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  • 5391
    The answer to your first question is yes; this makes the Prophet a pedophile, in addition to his other fine traits of being a thief, polygamist, murderer and a liar. The legend also points out that when the issue of Aisha’s youth was raised among the tribes, Mohammed then had another curiously convenient ”Revelation“ that it was OK for him to be wed to the child. 

    Your second question is incoherent. This post was edited by Don Barzini at March 15, 2018 5:59 PM MDT
      March 11, 2018 7:33 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    Thank you for your answer. Perhaps I should have worded it something like If it's true, then why do almost two billion Muslims follow him?
    (Not enough letters in the question line without going in to the description of which most on answermug seem to miss what's posted in the description.)
      March 11, 2018 7:45 AM MDT
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  • 5391
    We could speculate all day why a belief spreads, but in the example of Islam, I would posit two primary reasons:
    A) Tribal indoctrination/societal pressure, and B) the absence of exposure to other thinking. 

    We might also mention that the penalty given in the HQ for nearly every transgression is death, which Muslim society seems all-too-eager to carry out. A powerful incentive to tow the line, yes?  
      March 11, 2018 7:59 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    The threat of death would likely be a big incentive for ones not to leave the religion that they were born into. 
      March 11, 2018 8:04 AM MDT
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  • 5391
    Apostates are the most reviled of humans in the Muslim view, having willingly turned from the revelations of Allah. Their punishment is to be the most extreme, in this life and the next.
    Yep, scary stuff to be born into. 
      March 11, 2018 8:11 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    1. The accusation of paedophilia levelled by more modern haters of Mohammed are based on his marriage to Aisha when she was, according to some reports, aged nine.

    1.1 Just as Mohammed has enemies now, he had enemies then too, who were always on the lookout and ever ready to discredit him at the slightest slipup. Despite that, there is no record anywhere accepted by serious historians that anyone accused Mohammed of being a paedophile. Had Mohammed been seen to be a paedophile his enemies would have wasted no time in using that to tear down his standing in the eyes of his followers. That is something that continues to exercise many minds to this day.

    1.2 A paedophile is a person who has a very strong irresistible sexual attraction towards prepubescent young children preferring them to adults and seeking sexual gratification through them in secret because of social disapproval.

    1.3 That description does not, according to any serious historical account, fit Mohammed.

    1.4 At age 25 Mohammed was married to a widow of 40, had children with her and remained married to her till her death. Also Most of Mohammed’s other wives were similarly either widows or divorced. Hardly a sign of a paedophile.

    2. "Mohammed then had another curiously convenient ”Revelation“ that it was OK for him to be wed to the child." >>> that sounds like ground breaking research from someone who claims to have thoroughly studied the HQ. What verse was that?

    3. As for "in addition to his other fine traits of being a thief, polygamist, murderer and a liar." I guess we get the message. He stepped on your foot and you have never forgiven him since. Quite right too.
      March 12, 2018 1:35 PM MDT
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  • 2657

    Funny that you constantly bash the Bible and say that rational Christians leave Christianity and follow Islam but anyone that questions Islam, Muhammad or the Quran you label as haters. 

    As far as 'prepubescent young children':

    Quran 65:4  And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.


    As far as the rest of his sex life, you don't find this a bit odd:
    Quran 33:37-38 And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished.
    38 There is not to be upon the Prophet any discomfort concerning that which Allah has imposed upon him. [This is] the established way of Allah with those [prophets] who have passed on before. And ever is the command of Allah a destiny decreed.


    (Sorry for the bold. It's the way it came from the version of the Quran I copied from and can't seem to undo it.)

      March 12, 2018 5:19 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    With all due respects to you after hundreds of exchanges between you and me I have decided I do not want to engage with you any more. What I post tends to be too emotionally upsetting for you to handle and what you post I sometimes find too exasperating for me. Your first opening sentence itself contains evidence of the latter. [yes, I do feel that many people who leave Christianity find it rationally incompatible with what we know today, but where did I say "that rational Christians leave Christianity and follow Islam"??? Why would I say that when I believe they tend mostly to become atheists with some getting into Buddhism? I find it too ridiculous for words the allegation that "anyone that questions Islam, Muhammad or the Quran you label as haters."] I can't keep responding to these accusations and innuendos any more, sorry. That's most definitely not a friendly comparison of beliefs.

    Where I choose to respond it will be because I consider it to be a valid point which might be puzzling to a non-Muslim

    "As far as 'prepubescent young children': Quran 65:4 ....." >>> That verse has nothing to do with prepubescent young children. It specifies a method of determining the duration of "iddah" for a woman following divorce"

    "As far as the rest of his sex life, you don't find this a bit odd: Quran 33:37-38....." >>>> that is not specific enough for me to answer because I don't know what specific problem is being alluded to. Of course it does not seem odd to me. The verse is there as evidence that where there is no biological or blood relationship then marriage is not prohibited.
      March 13, 2018 6:51 AM MDT
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  • 2657

    Quote: [With all due respects to you after hundreds of exchanges between you and me I have decided I do not want to engage with you any more. What I post tends to be too emotionally upsetting for you to handle and what you post I sometimes find too exasperating for me. Your first opening sentence itself contains evidence of the latter. [yes, I do feel that many people who leave Christianity find it rationally incompatible with what we know today, but where did I say "that rational Christians leave Christianity and follow Islam"??? Why would I say that when I believe they tend mostly to become atheists with some getting into Buddhism?]

    I will likely continue to respond to your taunts about the Bible being unreliable and Paul being in opposition to Jesus.

    Here is one place where you said something about rational people turning away from Christianity and ex-Christians turning to Jesus through Islam:

     

    [Anyway, the points I was making are:


    • 1- When the Romans adopted Christianity they took the teachings of Paul, changed them to fit in with Pagan beliefs and festivals, convened councils to agree new doctrines and enforced the new faith called Christianity, which Jesus had never heard of, throughout their empire. 

      2- All Protestant churches, including JWs, have inherited their teachings about Jesus from the Roman Catholics.

      3- These teachings
      a- regard Jesus as God and the son of God,
      b- they teach that God was not capable of forgiving Adam,
      c- that God held every human baby guilty of Adam's sin,
      d- that a ransom had to be paid (who to, cannot be explained) 
      e- that God had to have a human sacrifice before he would forgive,
      f- that God offered his innocent son to be killed to free the "guilty",
      g- that inexplicably it was God who died,
      h- that inexplicably the dead God raised himself,
      i- that again inexplicably the raised God became the raised Jesus
      j- that Jesus (God) is sitting at the right hand side of God,
      k- that God was now able to forgive.

      4- It is teachings like these, which Jesus himself never taught, that are turning thousands of rational people away from Christianity.

      5- Many, including ex-Christians, see in Islam the pure original teachings about Jesus and arereturning to Jesus through Islam.]

      • Report
      CLURT

      by CLURT on January 3rd, 2013

     

     

     

     

    Quote:  [I find it too ridiculous for words the allegation that "anyone that questions Islam, Muhammad or the Quran you label as haters."] I can't keep responding to these accusations and innuendos any more, sorry. That's most definitely not a friendly comparison of beliefs.]

    Almost all of our threads start with your taunts against the Bible and Paul sometimes saying something is a fact according to some supposed experts and therefore not an attack. When I mention something like the Quran does something similar to your accusation, you are quick to reply that we are not talking about the Quran. When a thread is about the Quran, Muhammad or Islam like this one, you are the one that finds it too emotionally upsetting for you to handle.

     

     

     




    Quote: ["As far as 'prepubescent young children': Quran 65:4 ....." >>> That verse has nothing to do with prepubescent young children. It specifies a method of determining the duration of "iddah" for a woman following divorce"]

    It appears that that verse applies to Muslims that own or have women some so young as not to have menstruated yet. Among those divorced young women, apparently they have to wait three months after their divorce to have them, yes?

    Quran 65:4  And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.




    Quote: ["As far as the rest of his sex life, you don't find this a bit odd: Quran 33:37-38....." >>>> that is not specific enough for me to answer because I don't know what specific problem is being alluded to. Of course it does not seem odd to me. The verse is there as evidence that where there is no biological or blood relationship then marriage is not prohibited.]

    His adoptive son was allowed to just keep her until he had no longer need for her and then he divorced her and Muhammad married her.  I am sure that since it is his adoptive son, you don't think in law marriage applies. What about all the prophets that spoke against marrying a divorced woman? What about divorcing a woman that seems to have Allah's and Muhammads blessing?

     

    (Leviticus 21:7) They should not marry a prostitute, a woman who has been defiled, or a woman divorced from her husband, because the priest is holy to his God.
    (Ezekiel 44:22) They should not take a widow or a divorced woman as a wife; but they may marry either a virgin of the offspring of Israel or the widow of a priest.’
    (Matthew 5:32) However, I say to you that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of sexual immorality, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
    (Luke 16:18) “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
     


    Quran 33:37-38 And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished.
    38 There is not to be upon the Prophet any discomfort concerning that which Allah has imposed upon him. [This is] the established way of Allah with those [prophets] who have passed on before. And ever is the command of Allah a destiny decreed.

     
      March 13, 2018 9:28 AM MDT
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  • 1393

    With all due respects to you after hundreds of exchanges between you and me I have decided I do not want to engage with you any more. What I post tends to be too emotionally upsetting for you to handle and what you post I sometimes find too exasperating for me.

    If I choose to respond it will be because I have seen a question genuinely seeking clarification of my view of Jesus or the Bible or Islam.

    Islam teaches respect for all Biblical prophets including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

    I have never expressed any insulting or offensive remarks against any Bible character.

    I do not support anti-Christian sites or post anything from such sites

    I post my understanding of the Biblical Jesus story with backing from the Bible

    Any Biblical information I post can be readily verified from the work of respectable Bible scholars and researchers.

     

      March 13, 2018 11:22 AM MDT
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  • 2657

    That's your summary of your opinion.

    I think it is you that find it to emotionally upsetting for you to handle. Hundred of exchanges between me and you have had you posting negative things about the Bible being changed and unreliable and Paul preaching in opposition to Jesus. It's been exasperating for me to constantly give you other other verses and the context in defense of the Bible and Paul. I don't think anyone is overly considered with your view of Jesus or the Bible and you have refused to respond to questions about Islam. It's your opinion that making claims about Jesus not dying like he said he would which would make him a liar and your opinion that speaking against Paul is respectful but I see it different. Any understanding you have of the Bible is through Islamic interpretation and when the Bible contradicts that, you claim the Bible has been changed so the verse is suspect. I am sure that you do respect the supposed scholars and researchers that slam the Bible as it suits your agenda. Hundreds of exchanges with me defending the Bible and Paul and you get emotionally upset over two questions about Muhammad and Islam.




      March 15, 2018 4:57 PM MDT
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  • 5391
    Your definition conveniently suits your bias. A pedophile in real society is someone who has sex with a child. Mohammad married a child. One that we know of. Her only marriage. Not his by a longshot.

    Pull up his biography and you’ll find many of his followers did indeed question his child bride, and there were other scandals that created controversy as well. But Mohammed had a Get Out of Jail Free card: Allah.

    Muhammed seemed to have quite a penchant for “just-in-time” revelations to absolve him of bad conduct. It, to me, sounds quite astounding that an eternally existing heavenly scripture would contain revelation that applies to the intimate personal affairs of only one illiterate individual who lived in the Arabian desert in the 7th century. Nevertheless, this is what we find. It is also beyond incredible that revelations were conveniently revealed at the times of Mohammed’s specific advantage. 

    So which is more likely;
    The eternal supernatural omnipotent unseen God of the Universe pre-planned to excuse the libidinous excesses of just one human being, as they materialized;

    or,

    It’s a misapprehension or a lie. 




    This post was edited by Don Barzini at March 12, 2018 2:43 PM MDT
      March 12, 2018 2:41 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    A- You fell into the trap of typing into the wrong box and your post has appeared as an answer to the main question rather than comments on something I've posted.

    B- I don't know if you're really interested in an open minded mutual exploration of the subject or, as suggested by your posts, you have the close mindset of "I don't care what it says anywhere, my mind is made up for ever". If it's the latter, I've obviously wasted my time.

    1. "Your definition conveniently suits your bias."

    It wasn't my definition. Anyway here are some more:

    Wikipedia: Pedophilia, or paedophilia, is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.

    Cambridge: someone who is sexually interested in children [it then goes on to define what it means by sexually, interested and children]

    Collins    : Paedophilia is sexual activity with children or the condition of being sexually attracted to children. [what it means by sexual and activity are separately defined though it does not define children]

    the free dictionary: (Psychiatry) the condition of being sexually attracted to children [nothing is further defined]

    Oxford: A person who is sexually attracted to children. [nothing is further defined]
    Urbandictionary: As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia (or paedophilia) is typically defined as a psychiatric disorder in adults or late adolescents (persons age 16 or older) characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (generally age 13 years or younger, though onset of puberty may vary).

    The most open and catch-all definitions, which would be thrown out in any academic discussion, are the ones by the Oxford and the Free dictionaries. Both talk about being sexually attracted to children. I don't think any historian has found evidence of that with Mohammed.

    2. "many of his followers did indeed question his child bride" 
    That is strange because having a child bride was a common practice. If we move away from the remote Middle East to closer home, away from "their" culture to "ours" away from the ancient sixth century practice to a more modern 12th century one we find that "Agnes of France was also married young in 1179 - at age 8 to prince Alexios son of the Eastern Roman Emperor Manuel I Komnenos, to forge an alliance between France and the Byzantine [Eastern Roman] Empire." It obviously would not have happened if it was a socially unacceptable or unusual practice.

    3. "The eternal supernatural omnipotent unseen God of the Universe pre-planned to excuse the libidinous excesses of just one human being, as they materialized"

    3.1 I'll give a response because the statement does contain a very valid point even though as worded it reads like a copy and paste from a very unacademic site with an axe to grind. There is a rapidly growing number of such claims out there and always have been since the time of Mohammed. Attempting to respond to them can be likened to attempting to chase and overtake one's tail. A lifetime task doomed to failure.

    3.2 Have you got a record of "the libidinous excesses of just one human being, as they materialized"?

    3.3 That "The eternal supernatural omnipotent unseen God of the Universe pre-planned to" authorise the instructions and statements that form the HQ is a very valid and genuine intrigue. At age 40 Mohammed claimed that he had started receiving revelations from God for the information and guidance of mankind. These claimed revelations or divine inspirations continued, on and off, until his death at age 63, but they would only come if there was a call for information or guidance/decision that Mohammed could not, or felt unauthorised to, provide. It is not Mohammed's sayings at all other times but only these claimed revelations or divine inspirations that were collected together to form what is the Qur'an today. In none of these, presumably, hundreds of incidents of claimed revelations which happened in public was there anything like a booming voice from the skies heard by all or a being materialising from thin air for all to see delivering the verses and then vanishing. So everyone's acceptance or rejection of the HQ, even those who were with Mohammed, is based on their exercise of uncoerced choice.
      March 13, 2018 11:00 AM MDT
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  • 5391
    ”Open minded mutual exploration...”, who are you fooling, dude? I make an assertion, and you deny it, or just as often, divert around it. I couldn’t care less if you agree with my position or not. 

    “Uncoerced choice”, do you truly think that is everyone’s path to accepting The HQ? You’re confecting a false positive spin on human ignorance, Clurt, while conveniently omitting the forced indoctrination of Arab children.
    How tragically amusing. 

    You are as much a joke intellectually as the primitive lunacy you so poorly defend. I’ll waste no more energy on you. Better to save yours for someone who values your opinion. 

    This post was edited by Don Barzini at March 15, 2018 9:32 PM MDT
      March 15, 2018 8:25 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    1. "I make an assertion, and you deny it" >>> Erm... what am I expected to do if I don't agree with it? Would you accept an assertion you don't agree with?

    2. There are two important points in your next paragraph:
    a] what you call "mass indoctrination of children" responsibly done in the interest of the children is a parental and societal responsibility so that children will fit in well into the sort of family and society we consider best. The alternative is to give them no name, and shield them from all hearing, seeing and learning and feed them on milk only until they are mature enough to decide what name, culture and society they want. How will you decide maturity in a mind so blank, I don't know.
    b] "a positive spin on human ignorance"? I'm not sure. Whether a guy is a farmworker or a leading edge scientist, no one knows everything. So we are all on some level or another of ignorance. We all make decisions, which we hope are the best, within the boundaries of our limited knowledge. 

    3. Regarding your last paragraph, when someone responds with insults it's evidence that they have no rational argument to respond with.
      March 16, 2018 5:24 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    Q "Did Muhammad really marry Aisha at age 6 and deflower her at age 9? If true, how almost two billion Muslims?"




    1. The accusation of paedophilia levelled by more modern haters of Mohammed and implied in the question are based on his marriage to Aisha when she was, according to some reports, aged nine.

    1.1 Just as Mohammed has enemies now, he had enemies then too, who were always on the lookout and ever ready to discredit him at the slightest slipup. Despite that, there is no record anywhere accepted by serious historians that anyone accused Mohammed of being a paedophile. Had Mohammed been seen to be a paedophile his enemies would have wasted no time in using that to tear down his standing in the eyes of his followers. That is an objective which continues to exercise many minds to this day.

    1.2 A paedophile is a person who has a very strong irresistible sexual attraction towards prepubescent young children preferring them to adults and seeking sexual gratification through them in secret because of social disapproval.

    1.3 That description does not, according to any serious historical account, fit Mohammed.

    1.4 At age 25 Mohammed was married to a widow of 40, had children with her and remained married to her till her death. Also Most of Mohammed’s other wives were similarly either widows or divorced. Hardly a sign of a paedophile.

    2. Today we would never allow our daughters to get married in their preteens but in ages gone by it was common practice for girls to be married young.

    2.1 Research has shown that Mary married to 92 year old Joseph may very well have been pregnant with Jesus when she was 12 or 13.

    2.2 Agnes of France was also married young in 1179 - at age 8 to prince Alexios son of the Eastern Roman Emperor Manuel I Komnenos, to forge an alliance between France and the Byzantine [Eastern Roman] Empire.

    3. There is no magic one age right for all as far as the age of consent is concerned. Many countries have arrived at different ages using different criteria.

    4. The age at which onset of puberty occurs also varies from person to person. Born on September 27, 1933 in the small village of Paurange, Lina Medina had a son on Mother's Day, May 14, 1939. She, Lina, was only 5 years 8 months old at the birth of her child. 



      March 12, 2018 3:40 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    So other people did it so that makes it right? In no way was Mary 12 or 13 when she was pregnant and Joseph wasn't likely 92 either although he was likely a bit older than she was. If you accept that you likely accept the Shroud of Turin as legit as well and all of those images of Jesus on toast and the statue of Jesus really wept in Pakistan instead of just bad plumbing. Likely the same source on all of that and it's not the Bible.

    Oh, and not sure why you think it is hate when I am only saying what scholars have said? Do you remember using that line a few times?


    EDIT: I have a hard time believing that someone that claims to be rational uses what appears to be horrendous crimes to add legitimacy to other horrendous acts.

    https://womenintheworld.com/2017/02/10/youngest-mother-in-medical-history-was-only-5-years-old/

    Lina Medina was born to a poor Peruvian family in 1933 and only 5 years old when doctors found what they believed to be a large stomach tumor. After a series of tests, it turned out Lina had a condition called “precocious puberty” and had actually been pregnant for seven months. She gave birth to a healthy, six-pound son just weeks later, by Caesarean section, as her pelvis was too small for a natural birth. The boy was named Gerardo, after the doctor who delivered him.

    Police suspected young Lina had been raped by her father, so he was arrested but later released due to lack of evidence. Gerardo grew up without health problems, but died at the age of 40 due to a bone disease. Lina is now 85, but she has never talked about the pregnancy. She gave birth to a second son in the 1970s, conceived with her husband, Raul. While some believe the case is a hoax, doctors claim to have X-rays and biopsies proving it was a real pregnancy. For more on her sad and improbable story, watch the video below.


    Also, you are the one that brought up paedophilia. I just don't think it is right regardless of what it is called or the time period. Before I started studying the Bible, I had friends that joked saying something like 'old enough to bleed, old enough to breed'. Until your post, I didn't really think anyone really felt that way.

    This post was edited by texasescimo at March 15, 2018 5:53 PM MDT
      March 12, 2018 6:16 PM MDT
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  • 1393

    With all due respects to you after hundreds of exchanges between you and me I have decided I do not want to engage with you any more. What I post tends to be too emotionally upsetting for you to handle and what you post I sometimes find too exasperating for me.

    If I choose to respond it will be because I have seen a question genuinely seeking clarification of my view of Jesus or the Bible or Islam.

    Islam teaches respect for all Biblical prophets including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

    I have never expressed any insulting or offensive remarks against any Bible character.

    I do not support anti-Christian sites or post anything from such sites

    I post my understanding of the Biblical Jesus story with backing from the Bible

    Any Biblical information I post can be readily verified from the work of respectable Bible scholars and researchers.

      March 13, 2018 11:23 AM MDT
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