How serious is not wearing one? Why?
Indeed HF, and as they also say, you can take a horse to a fountain but you cannot make it drink
Glad you've found time to watch the videos of the Sufi teachers. I think they're quite good, knowledgeable and inspirational.
Talking about horses, as we were above, I think I remember reading in one of your posts that your contact with Islam came about through your work with or interest in horses. Since then I've been meaning to post this video about Jerald Dirks, an American master of divinity, who also came across Islam through his interest in and research into breeds of horses. You can fast forward to 4:40 if you want to get straight to where he brings the subject of horses into the interview.
I believe the veil is a symbol of the oppression of women, and I know I am far from alone in that outlook. I don't dislike Muslims for being Muslims like some people do, but let's face it, Islam does not have the most sterling of reputations for advocating women's rights, does it?
"let's face it, Islam does not have the most sterling of reputations for advocating women's rights, does it?"
Yes, most people just accept stereotypes about Islam. It's so easy and effortless and the more negative the stereotype the greater the feel good factor.
However, those who do a little open minded research will see that the reality is the very opposite.
Here's just one example of many that the stereotype is a gross distortion of the reality:
England became one of the first European nations to pass legislation, the ‘Married women’s property law’ of 1882 which stopped women being regarded as legal nonentities, the same as children and pets, and enabled them, for the first time, to be recognised as legal owners of their own property. Political recognition came later with the suffragette movement. Islam gave women those rights FOURTEEN CENTURIES ago.
That women have a very honourable status in Islam is evidenced by the fact that of every four converts to Islam in the west THREE are women. Many of them are educated career women. Here's a short video clip of one giving her story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQCAxv-6WI
Clurt, since you are so obviously an expert on Islam and I know absolutely bog all about it, I am offering you yet another chance to prove me and my silly stereotypes wrong. For every example of Islamic women being oppressed by men, I want you to show me at least 100 genuine examples of fem-dom in Islam. If you can succeed in this, I might consider reconsidering my silly stereotyped view of Islam and who knows, I might even start to take a positive interest in Islam. But until you succeed in proving what I ask you to prove, I will still continue to have my doubts about Islam being the noble religion you so vehemently profess it to be.
PS I am not interested in those video clips that you used to spam Answerbag with. I've seen it all before and I don't wish to see it again.
Hi Andy. I was just curious. Is wearing the veil stated
in the Koran or is it a man-made requirement? Thank you for your reply and Happy Sunday! :)
What is the purpose of veil? Is it a requirement as listed in the Koran? Are Muslim wome who do not wear veils bad Muslims? Thank you for your reply CLURT and Happy Sunday.
So the Koran does NOT require women to wear veils? That is a man-made cultural rule? Thank you for your reply ozgirl and Happy Sunday! :)
Not sure if they are required by the Quran or just Hadiths and Islamic law? If there is an obscure line between leniency and harshness on a controversial issue, Islam seems to usually take the harsher route.
Here is what I found (This is a biased site so I recommend to read the verses and ignore the commentary):
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/veils.aspx
QuranQuran (33:59) - "Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them..."Quran (24:31) - "And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known." The woman is not only supposed to cover herself, except with relatives, but to look down, so as to avoid making eye-contact with men. Quran (33:55) - "It shall be no crime in them as to their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their woman, or the slaves which their right hands possess, if they speak to them unveiled" A woman may present herself without a veil only to family and slaves. |
Hadith and SiraSahih Bukhari (6:321) - Muhammad is asked whether it is right for a young woman to leave her house without a veil. He replies, "She should cover herself with the veil of her companion."Sahih Bukhari (60:282) - After Muhammad issued the command (Quran 24:31) for women to cover themselves, the women responded by tearing up sheets to cover their faces. Abu Dawud (32:4092) - The Apostle of Allah... said: "O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands" This was narrated by Aisha. Abu Dawud (2:641) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah does not accept the prayer of a woman who has reached puberty unless she wears a veil. Sahih Bukhari (52:250) - [The Prophet said] "It is not permissible for a man to be alone with a woman, and no lady should travel except with a Muhram (i.e. her husband or a person whom she cannot marry in any case for ever; e.g. her father, brother, etc.)." - Neither is a woman allowed to travel by herself. Sahih Bukhari (8:395): Narrated Umar: "My Lord agreed with me in three things: -1. I said, "O Allah's Messenger, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two rak`at of Tawaf of Ka`ba)". (2.125) -2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Messenger! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed. -3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." An interesting hadith reveals that Umar was the source of the verse on veils and that "Allah" followed with a concurring verse. Early Muslims were not known for their skepticism. |
That is what I understand ... I may be wrong :)
To be perfectly honest, Rosie, I haven't read the Koran, but if it does state such requirements for women then I have no desire to read it. Of course, it might be a man-made requirement, but if it is then that just goes to show what a piggish society they must live in. I will not kowtow to anything that insists on male dominance and the oppression of women, and that is final. Happy Sunday, Rosie!:)
Thank you for going to all that trouble tex and for the information and links you provided. I appreciate it. Happy Sunday! :)
I don't know so that's why I asked. If it's man-made then we certainly can't blame the religion can we ozgirl?
I think it's man-made Andy so the religion itself isn't to blame and gets a bad rap! Thank you for your reply! :)
You're welcome RosieG!
I'll have to look into it, Rosie.
I don't think it's that simple ... A cultural more can be reinforced be using selected religious extracts to reinforce it ... As you I think pointed out, many Muslim women don't cover up entirely ... I'm not religious but I don't believe this makes them non believers ... Personally if I was to believe in any God then I would feel he has greater things on his mind to worry about then what I'm wearing or not wearing ... But that's a logical approach and religion is often anything but logical
So you are equating being totally naked with wearing a veil then? I think they are not remotely analogous hartfire. In one case you cover the face which is NOT considered to be a "private part". On the other hand you cover the body which consists of male and female "private parts" along with unprivate parts. We do have NUDE beaches in California as well as Nudist Colonists. So if one has the desire to be naked as a jay bird one and wear only one's birthday suit one
need only seek out those places and voila...clothing optional . Do Muslim women have certain places outside the home where they can go veil less? Maybe they do. I don't know. Thank you for your reply.
I agree with your answer and all the points you make m'dear! Thank you for your reply ozgirl and Happy Monday! :)
The normal approach to forming a rational opinion on a subject is to listen with an open mind to both sides. However, there are many who don't want to know anything that challenges their one sided perception and will find all excuses not to. It's their choice and they're entitled to it.
All religions have different standards of what each individual wants to express. This religion is no different than Catholics who wear or don't wear hats in church. What is the big deal? Some are traditionalists some are not.
Some Hindus wear Saris some do not. No big whoop. It's what's inside that counts in the end.
texas once more you have shown yourself to be quite insufferable.
