How serious is not wearing one? Why?
"The normal approach to forming a rational opinion on a subject is to listen with an open mind to both sides"
That's the normal approach for people born under Air signs. However, I was born under a Water sign and therefore, to me anything that signifies the oppression of women does just that - signifies the oppression of women. If there is indeed another side to it, then maybe you (being an expert on Islam) could show me how it doesn't oppress women. Then, after you have succeeded in proving that, I would then like to see some evidence that Islam actually encourages women to be strong, assertive, dominant and independent of men. Come on, CLURT, let's see you answer that one!
In accordance with both Koran and Hadith, Muslim women are only required to wear the veil in public or in the presence of males who are not their husband, a close relative, or a house servant (presumed slave-eunuch).
Mulsim women can wear anything they like in the privacy of their homes.
I wasn't quite equating nakedness with a veil. I was, unskillfully, trying to show that what we find unacceptable is a matter of convention and what we are accustomed to.
For instance, most hunter-gatherers in tropical climates wear nothing but a cache-sex across the front.
Complete nudity among men and complete or near-complete nudity among women is still common for Mursi, Surma, Nuba, Karimojong, Kirdi, Dinka, and sometimes Masai people in Africa, as well as Matses, Yanomami, Suruwaha, Xingu, Matis and Galdu people in South America.[From https://activenaturists.net/nudity-ok which contains images as proof.] Also the tribespeople of remote hill country in New Guinea and Irian Jaya, and at the top of the extinct volcano lake in Bali (have seen them with my own eyes.)
In these places, nudity is not sexualised. It is so normal that it arouses no lust whatsoever, even among the young and beautiful. Passion arises from behavior, emotions, and situation.
1- Not that long ago this was a western attire
http://www.fashion-era.com/images/Victorians/1838vicladies480x20.jpg
2- There are Muslim women who are less covered than the women in the illustration above.
3- Nuns wear headscarves for religious reasons but the woman in the headscarf in the video is not a Muslim
4- Every organisation has a dress code that specifies a minimum acceptable standard. For example, you may be fully covered up but if you're in your nightie, pyjamas or dressing gown some grocery stores won't allow you onto their premises. No one will bat an eyelid if there are bare chested men walking on the high street but a bare chested woman will turn a lot of heads and might even get arrested.
5- Some people will dress to blend in. Others with a rebellious streak might dress just below the minimum requirement, while there may be some who want to go a step further.
6- The HQ specifies a dress code which many Muslims fall short of while there are others who go a step further and put on a face covering too which is not mentioned by the HQ. Perhaps it's their sense of devotion that makes them go further. Here are three Muslim women covered to different levels explaining why.
Many Muslims believe that only the Quran is relevant, and do not accept the Hadith as coming from their prophet.
Once again you have shown yourself to be an intolerant bigot that can't stand to actually learn something. RosieG appreciated it and that's enough for me.
"maybe you (being an expert on Islam) could show me how it doesn't oppress women"
why not let the women speak for themselves? Or do you think women should not be allowed to speak for themselves? I posted a video of an American Muslim woman speaking for herself but you refused to hear her out. Here's a Spanish one:
Sharonna 
What do these verses mean to you?
Quran (33:59) - "Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them..."
Quran (24:31) - "And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known."
Quran (33:55) - "It shall be no crime in them as to their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their woman, or the slaves which their right hands possess, if they speak to them unveiled"
Am I reading these wrong?
Quran (33:59) - "Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them..."
Quran (24:31) - "And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known."
Quran (33:55) - "It shall be no crime in them as to their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their woman, or the slaves which their right hands possess, if they speak to them unveiled"
I think "not display their ornaments" refers to women's breasts. I think the men are sex-obsessed and don't want other men desiring their women. And the women comply like obedient pets. It is all very sad and unnatural. In my opinion. If all women were ugly and flat-chested perhaps the men would not be so jealously dictator
ial. But some women are very beautiful so they must cover up so they are hidden from the world. They are slaves. Captives to their keepers. What kind of life is that? Thank you for your reply tex.
Rather than try to hold the men accountable for self control like the Bible does, the Quran puts mens self control on the women.
(Colossians 3:5) Deaden, therefore, your body members that are on the earth as respects sexual immorality, uncleanness, uncontrolled sexual passion, hurtful desire, and greediness, which is idolatry.
(1 Corinthians 6:18) Flee from sexual immorality! Every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but whoever practices sexual immorality is sinning against his own body.
(2 Peter 1:5, 6) For this very reason, put forth all earnest effort to supply to your faith virtue, to your virtue knowledge, 6 to your knowledge self-control, to your self-control endurance, to your endurance godly devotion,
"I think the men are sex-obsessed and don't want other men desiring their women. And the women comply like obedient pets."
Wow, what kind of insult is that?
Glad the Muslim woman in the video below presents her case with due dignity
sharonna 
1- Secularists wonder why it would be important to God [if he exists] what a woman is or is not wearing, but it would become a great concern among them if a woman walks in the high street bare chested. [There have been strong protests against women who have dared to breast feed their babies in public]
2- No one one would bat an eyelid if women wore high neckline, long sleeved blouses and long skirts or loose trousers. That's never an issue. It never bothers anyone.
3- Go a tiny bit further and add a headscarf onto that and it suddenly becomes a big issue that bothers almost everyone. There are a few who become so agitated by it they try to pull it off women's heads in public and hurl abuse at them. Yet no one would be concerned, let alone agitated, at the sight of a nun wearing a headscarf. She would actually be admired for doing so and shown great respect.
4- The face veil is not an Islamic requirement according to the vast majority. However, Muslims are quite tolerant of those who want to wear one. Non-Muslims can't manage that level of tolerance on that extra tiny bit of fabric.
I deplore the kind of behavior that attacks women wearing head scarves
either physically or verbally or behind their backs.
(I'm on a 24 hr promise to avoid commas.)
I actually have no objection to any degree of nudity in any place.
For me the body is not important compared with the mind-heart.
However - there are plenty of reasons for lots of cover
without reference to issues of hiding either beauty or ugliness
or protection from the eyes of men who are presumed to be incapable of controlling their urges (an insult to men.)
Exposure is uncomfortable.
It is too hot - too cold - too windy - too many biting insects - and impractical for many kinds of work.
It's hard to find a few minutes of ideal conditions for bearing the skin to get a bit of vitamin D.
Loose clothing is far more comfortable.
To all those who've never tried it -
if you do you'll never want to go back to anything skin-tight.
- and thus traditions are born.
The desert people in the Prophet's time would have needed a lot of cover and insulation of layers because of the fierce sun -
so they were accustomed to not seeing skin -
- and thus traditions are born.
Today osteoporosis is one of the most serious health problems affecting both men and women living in the Middle East because they don't get enough sunlight on their skins. Possibly in Mohammed's time no one lived long enough for this to have been known or become evident.
Moderate Muslims have the advantage of greater flexibility of choice without offending against the faith.
During Mohammed's life his disciples questioned him as to what women should wear.
The Prophet specified that she could show her face and hands in public - she should be modest in dress and behavior and not be seen to wobble.
After his death - his disciples who had known him personally said that he had specified full cover during private conversations in the presence of his family. They reported that he had specified full cover in public.
But this was not what he had said to a public audience.
So modern-moderates follow Mohammed's public statement and allow it to be the woman's right to choose -- while radical fundamentalists and theocracies follow the private statement and permit no choice.
Wearing a veil hides the face. A headscarf does not. When I had cancer in 2008 and lost all my hair and was bald as a billiard ball I did cover my head. With hats or caps. That was because I looked odd and didn't enjoy being stared at and because being bald makes you cold all the time. Even in the summer. But you could always see my face CLURT. So wearing a veil is a CHOICE for women and not a law placed upon them by jealous controlling men? What about honor killings? Is that in the Koran? You know when a woman commits adultery and dies for it OR even worse she is raped and dies for it anyway because it dishonors the men in her life? Is that her choice too or is that non-existent? Are honor-killings lies told to discredit Islam and no man would ever turn his hand against a woman for adultery or being raped? You see that is what we hear about some Muslim men. The turn on their own to restore their HONOR. Please let me know what is true and what isn't. Thank you for your reply. I seriously doubt that a woman would agree to being stoned to death or otherwise murdered because of a love affair or being raped. 
So you deplore those who think the face should be visible and not hidden? Is that considered by you to be a verbal attack? So you must deplore me then. So be it. I deplore being deplored for my opinion so that makes us even I suppose
? I think it is just common sense hartfire. What is the difference between wearing a veil and wearing a ski mask or other face cover? I see none. Thank you for reply and Happy Wednesday.
1- "Wearing a veil hides the face. A headscarf does not.....[and] you could always see my face CLURT"
I'm sure if you had perceived a compelling reason to cover your face, partly or fully, as you did with your head, then you would have covered your face too. In the same way the women who wear the veil feel compelled within themselves to do so and their urge must be so strong as to make them do it, despite the disadvantages, dangers and threats that come with doing so.
2- [sorry about your cancer. Wish you a full recovery] You've actually been through "I looked odd and didn't enjoy being stared at and because being bald makes you cold all the time. Even in the summer." Many women haven't been through that. I wonder whether that puts you in a better position to understand why Muslim women who put on the headscarf, burka or face veil might say, "I looked odd wearing it and didn't enjoy being stared at and because being clad in it makes you feel hot at all the time. Even in the winter." If you can understand that, you might be able to understand that it is not an easy decision for them. Mind you, those are only a few of the problems that these women experience with their chosen attire. No wonder there are many women who think it's too much and just can't be bothered dressing that way.
3- "So wearing a veil is a CHOICE for women and not a law placed upon them by jealous controlling men?"
In Islam women are neither in the control of men nor are they the possessions of men like a baggage that a man puts his label on to signify ownership. Those Muslim women who don't realise this, and there are many who don't, should know that Muslim women don't take on the husband's name when they marry. A woman's name is part of her identity and she comes with her name into the marriage and retains that name. Just like the man is directly answerable to God for his responsibilities and learns about them from the HQ, so is the married woman directly answerable to God for her responsibilities and learns about them from the HQ.
4- "What about honor killings?"
You're too nice a person to realise it, but what you've just done is sadly very familiar to Muslims under the present climate in which most people are convinced that Islam/Muslims is/are evil to the core. As soon as you answer an allegation in a way that the other person cannot easily see a follow up question on that allegation, s/he will jump to another allegation, "what about....." Because isn't just about everything connected with Islam evil?
5- "Is that in the Koran?" - No. There is no "honour killing" in the HQ. There is the law of equal retribution, though [the life for a life judgement, which is itself deeply controversial and highly misunderstood]
I see you've posted a question on the topic of honour killings and I'll see if I can address the subject there.
I refuse to watch any of those videos which you deliberately post in the hopes of converting me. You will NOT convert me. You will NEVER sway me from my beliefs even if we both live for a billion years and are the last two people on earth, you will never succeed in changing my views. This is what I think of your videos:
And of course I think women should speak for themselves. I've thought that since I was in primary school, long before I learned about the birds and the bees, long before I'd heard of feminism or male chauvinism. How dare you insinuate that I don't think women should speak for themselves? You are not doing your cause any favours by saying things like that.
I listened to both women speaking and think they speak well. The Spanish one is easier for me to relate to.
I think the ways of thinking within Moderate Islam and in average Western attitudes are like fish evolved to live in fresh or salt water -- one has great difficulty with the water of the other.
It requires a significant act of will to slough off one's own preconceptions and attempt to imaginatively immerse one's self in the other's world-view. And I think a lot of people don't want to do that - it's too uncomfortable even for a few minutes.
There is so much misinformation and negative publicity on both sides.
For instance, the way Western television and ads sexualise things - makes it look as though the west is obsessed with sex, whereas really only the young are (and perhaps a small proportion of others). The sexualisation is mainly a product of the need to generate and manipulate emotions, but it's an artificial exaggeration, like portrayals of adventures, wealth, and expensive cars that most people could never afford, or using fear to sell insurance. Real lives are far more mundane than that. When I look at our TV I can't helping thinking what a horrible, warped impression of the West it must create in the eyes of Muslims. And then stuff appears on the news, which is really statistically small compared to the teeming millions of people, and it makes it look as if the stuff on TV really is how we live. Gross.
Not at all, Rosie! That's not what I said or implied.
I said. "I deplore the kind of behavior that attacks women wearing head scarves either physically, or verbally, or behind their backs."
In other words
I deplore the people who insult women for their declaration of faith through the way they dress.
No one deserves to be harassed because it infringes on that person's liberty by creating fear of going out in public.
Wearing the hijab causes no harm to anyone.
The ski mask is practical in very cold weather. The motor cycle helmet is practical for safety when riding. I wear a headscarf to protect my hair from getting dirty while grooming the horses, or when the wind is cold. Not all head coverings are declarations of faith.
The problem with harassment (of Muslim women for wearing the hijab) is that it is actually not about the head covering at all - it's about the symbolic declaration of a faith that the attacker does not fully understand.
Now that we have so many Muslims living among us, it is necessary that we make the effort to understand our neighbours properly.
Remember the story of the Good Samaritan. Charity, kindness, empathy - all must start within our own hearts first.
Otherwise we shall never be able to create and sustain peace among us.
Rosie, I'm so sorry to be contradicting you but I feel the strong need to draw a clear distinction for you.
SapphicHeart put it best when she posted a reply to another question, so I have cut and pasted it here...
According to Dr. Ahmed Ibrahim Khadr,
(Source: "Radical" vs. "Moderate" Islam: A Muslim View; Gatestone Institute)
Among the major distinctions (translated verbatim) made in an article by Khadr, referred to in the article by Gatestone Intitute:
- Radicals want the caliphate to return; moderates reject the caliphate.
- Radicals want to apply Sharia (Islamic law); moderates reject the application of Sharia.
- Radicals reject the idea of renewal and reform, seeing it as a way to conform Islam to Western culture; moderates accept it.
- Radicals accept the duty of waging jihad in the path of Allah; moderates reject it.
- Radicals reject any criticism whatsoever of Islam; moderates welcome it on the basis of freedom of speech.
- Radicals accept those laws that punish whoever insults or leaves the religion [apostates]; moderates recoil from these laws.
- Radicals respond to any insult against Islam or the prophet Muhammad -- peace and blessing upon him -- with great violence and anger; moderates respond calmly and peacefully on the basis of freedom of expression.
- Radicals respect and revere every deed and every word of the prophet -- peace be upon him -- in the hadith; moderates do not.
- Radicals oppose democracy; moderates accept it.
- Radicals see the people of the book [Jews and Christians] as dhimmis [barely tolerated subjects]; moderates oppose this [view].
Veils cover the face as do masks. I see no difference between the two. Head scarves do not cover the face. They cover the head. So you wouldn't mind having people wear masks covering their faces? Wouldn't you wonder WHY they are hiding behind a cover? I have no problem with how people choose to dress. I do have a problem with those who cover their faces. Simple as that. Thank you for your thoughtful and informative answer CLURT and Happy Thursday.
If you say something nasty about a Muslim I think most people would understand if the Muslim retaliates by saying something nasty about you in return. My responses don't do that. Neither do they give the whole theology of Islam, which anyone wanting to convert to Islam must research, study and understand before converting. No, my response to hatred against Islam and Muslims is to simply give some facts I know about Islam. Facts that anyone can check up.
People who choose to hate and spread hatred should realise that by doing so they are making a statement about their own character and about their understanding of their faith or philosophy and that they are in their own way helping to increase bigotry and violence.
