Active Now

Malizz
my2cents
Slartibartfast
Discussion » Questions » Legal » Are you absolutely sure that that comma belongs there?

Are you absolutely sure that that comma belongs there?

~

Posted - November 26, 2020

Responses


  • 19937
    Most of the time.
      November 26, 2020 12:52 PM MST
    3

  • 10662
    Peersonaly, I think it looks good there.  It kind of offsets the table lamp and sofa, yet without overpowering the color of the wall color.
      November 26, 2020 1:16 PM MST
    3

  • 6477
    Commas are like confetti, they should be spread liberally and widely within every sentence :P
      November 26, 2020 1:32 PM MST
    1

  • 4624

    I'm rarely completely sure.
    I was raised with British English which is still the officially correct standard in Australia.
    However, in Australia we are bombarded with American punctuation, spelling, words and phrases via any writing published there and sold here. 
    The main difference occurs in the combined use of period or comma with quote marks. In British English, the period and comma are placed outside quotation marks. However, if the punctuation mark is a part of the quote itself, then the quotation mark is placed after the period or comma. In American English, the period and comma are always placed inside quotation marks.

    When I write here - I never know whether I should stick with the British - because it's part of who I am - or whether I should use the American style because most Muggers would be more comfortable with it.

    Creative writers have far more latitude. As long as a writer is consistent, the reader soon picks up on a different usage and understands it, often unconsciously.

    There is one style I particularly like, the way scripts are written for radio. It place requires a comma wherever a slight breath or pause in the phrasing is needed for clarity. This assists the listener to hear the words more easily.

    ~ ~ ~

    from
    Grammar and Style in British English: A Comprehensive Guide for Students, Writers and Academics
    https://www.gsbe.co.uk/grammar-commas-and-full-stops.html



    Joining Commas

    Joining commas join independent (sentence-like) clauses that have intervening conjunctions such as andbutfor and while, and their use is often
    discretionary – 

          I asked him several times to turn down the volume, but he ignored me.

    The conjunction but joins two independent clauses, and in this example the comma is optional; it does no harm, but the sentence is sufficiently 
    short to cope without it. The longer the clause preceding the conjunction, however, the greater the need for a comma –

          I asked him several times in the course of the afternoon to turn down the  
          volume of his damned stereo, but he ignored me.

     

    Listing Commas

    Listing commas separate items, actions or ideas in a series and are used to avoid unnecessary repetitions of the conjunctions and and or. For
    example, instead of writing –

          She climbed into the car and fastened her seat belt and started the engine
          and drove off

    we write – 

          She climbed into the car, fastened her seat belt, started the engine and
          drove off.

    The listing comma is also used after all but the last in a string of adjectives –

          After the match, he took a longhotrelaxing bath.

    A comma may also be used to separate two adjectives –

          After the match, he took a hotrelaxing bath

    but it is generally omitted when the adjectives are strongly related or frequently used together –

          After the match, he took a long hot bath.

          Good old George!

          Their daughter, Lizzie, is a lovely little thing.

     

    The Serial Comma

    In British English, we do not generally use a listing comma after the penultimate item or phrase in a list or series of actions – 

          He said his favourite writers were Robert Harris, C. J. Sansom and
          Elizabeth Speller.

          He buttoned his coat, pulled down his cap, hunched his shoulders and
          stepped out into the rain.

    In American English, however, it is standard practice to use one –

          He said his favourite writers were Robert Harris, C. J. Sansom, and
          Elizabeth Speller.

          He buttoned his coat, pulled down his cap, hunched his shoulders, and
          stepped out into the rain.

    In this capacity, the listing comma is called a serial comma. It is also known as the Oxford comma and the Harvard comma because of its traditional
    use in the presses of those universities. Opinion on its use is divided, but in most cases it is difficult to see what purpose the serial comma can serve.
    The conjunction, usually and or or, is sufficient to indicate the separation of the last two items without a preceding comma. In fact, the serial comma
    can cause ambiguity by being mistaken for an isolating comma –

          The company is to open new outlets in Bangor, North Wales and Liverpool.

    Here we have one listing comma in an easily understood sentence involving new outlets in three places: (a) Bangor in Northern Ireland, (b) North 
    Wales and (c) Liverpool. If the the writer had meant Bangor in North Wales, then North Wales would have been cordoned off with isolating commas
    to give us new outlets in two places –

          The company is to open new outlets in Bangor, North Wales, and Liverpool.

    The problem is that we cannot be sure that the commas are indeed isolating commas, for if they are meant to be listing commas – the second being
    a serial comma – we are back with new outlets in three places.

    This said, there are two circumstances in which the serial comma avoids rather than creates ambiguity. The first is with lists whose penultimate items
    are composites (paired items), such that two conjunctions appear towards the end of the sentence. A commonly cited example is –

          My favourite breakfast is coffee, bacon and eggs and toast.

    The question is, which two items are paired, bacon and eggs with the toast served separately, or eggs and toast with the bacon served separately? 
    A serial comma avoids the confusion –

          My favourite breakfast is coffee, bacon and eggs, and toast.
          (Bacon and eggs paired)

          My favourite breakfast is coffee, bacon, and eggs and toast.
          (Eggs and toast paired)

    The second circumstance in which the serial comma is recommended is when the listed items might otherwise be misconstrued as appositives (two 
    or more words or phrases that have the same referent, such as actor, Derek Jacobi or US President, Barak Obama) –

          Included among the photographers exhibits were cross-dressers, Mike
          Tyson and Arnold Schwarzenegger.

    A serial comma after Mike Tyson would avoid the ambiguity and possibly a couple of libel suits, or even black eyes.

    Verdict: avoid the serial comma except where necessary.

     

    Isolating Commas

    The purpose of isolating commas is to cordon off information that is not essential to the sentence, whether a clause, a phrase or a single word –

          They discussed the problem for hours but, as usual, found no solution.

          Suddenly, there came a clap of thunder.

          I think, nevertheless, that you should let the matter rest.

          Larks, which nest on the ground, fly higher than most other birds.

    In each of these cases, we can remove what comes between the commas (or what comes before the only comma) without damaging the basic
    sentence –

          They discussed the problem for hours but found no solution.

          There came a clap of thunder.

          I think that you should let the matter rest.

          Larks fly higher than most other birds.

    There are circumstances, however, in which these comma omissions can cause problems.


    Pausing

    Very often, what resemble isolating commas are used instead to indicate speech-like pauses –

          They discussed the problem for hours, but as usual, found no solution.

    The sentence is now grammatically questionable. Instead of dividing it into its logical components, the commas are used to indicate the way in
    which the sentence would be spoken. This time, the removal of the words they enclose results in nonsense – 

          They discussed the problem for hours found no solution.1

    But this practice might be defended on the grounds that it makes for easier reading. Many readers, that is, interpret commas as pausing points,
    so that their logical use often interrupts the flow of the sentence –

          Karen stepped out of the door and, checking her purse for the key, closed
          it quietly behind her.
     (Correct)

    There are two natural pausing points in this sentence, the first after door and the second after key, but many people will also pause after and
    because they feel compelled to by the comma. The author of a popular novel, therefore, whose business after all is to entertain rather than
    enlighten, would be more likely to write –

          Karen stepped out of the door, and checking her purse for the key, closed
          it quietly behind her. 
    (Substandard, but a more accurate representation of speech patterns)2

    Thus correct grammar is sacrificed for the sake of optimum communication (and consequently the sale of more books). An undergraduate writing
    an essay, on the other hand, would be better advised to keep to the grammatical rule.

    Pausing commas really add nothing to the clarity of sentences, yet some people are fond of inserting them between the subject and verb –

          The more experienced members of the party, gave warning that the weather 
          conditions were about to 
    deteriorate. (Pointless comma)

    A pausing comma was once used to precede that clauses, but the practice is now obsolete –

          We can no longer say with the conviction we used to, that the British health
          service is the best in the world. 
    (Obsolete comma)


    Introductory adverbs and phrases

    Introductory adverbs are traditionally followed by commas –

          Suddenly, there came a clap of thunder.

          Outside, the temperature had dropped considerably.

          Nevertheless, I think you should let the matter rest.

    But with the current fashion of minimal punctuation, they are now often omitted –

          Suddenly there came a clap of thunder.

          Outside the temperature had dropped considerably.

          Nevertheless I think you should let the matter rest.

    In these examples, the omissions create no difficulties because the sentences can be read in only one way, but this is not always the case –

          Outside Lauras new car shone in the sunlight.

    This time, the absence of an isolating comma after the introductory adverb Outside invites the reader to construct the introductory phrase Outside 
    Laura's new car and therefore to expect something to happen in a road or in a car park. Only upon reaching the verb shone does he realise the
    error and discover that the observer is indoors. He then has to re-read the sentence, mentally inserting a comma where the writer should have put
    it in the first place –

          Outside, Lauras new car shone in the sunlight.

    Again –

          Originally we planned to visit the British Museum. However we decided
          to go to the Victoria and Albert instead. 

    The writer can get away without a comma in the first sentence but not in the second. The word however is meant to serve as a conjunctive adverb –

          However, we decided to go...

    but without the comma it appears initially to be a relative adverb –     

          However we decided to go... (on foot, by bus, by taxi?)

    Isolating commas, then, should be used where there would otherwise be an introductory word-phrase ambiguity. Here are a few more examples 
    where the missing commas cause confusion –

          Beneath the ground shook twenty miles from the volcano.

          After all he had been through a great deal.

          From two children start to mix with other children and make friends.

          Until the rain stopped the builders had nothing to do.

          Ten minutes after she returned with the tickets.

          Twelve months before he had taken up his new appointment.


    Mid-sentence adverbs

    Apart from conjunctive adverbs, the practice of enclosing mid-sentence adverbs in commas is all but obsolete –

          After a great deal of persuasion, he agreed, reluctantly, to help.

    We would write in this way today only if we wished to emphasise the adverb. Otherwise, we would omit the commas and place the adverb after the
    pronoun he –

          After a great deal of persuasion, he reluctantly agreed to help.


    Conjunctive adverbs

    Conjunctive adverbs (words and expressions such as howeverindeedin factmoreovernamelytherefore and thus) are not usually isolated when
    they appear between the subject and verb –

          I nevertheless think that you should let the matter rest.

          We therefore recommend that you always clean the product after use.

    The exception is when the subject requires emphasis or exclusivity, but note how this isolation can create the impression of arrogance or conceit –

          I, nevertheless, think that you should let the matter rest.

    Conjunctive adverbs are traditionally isolated when they appear between the main verb and that clauses –

          I think, nevertheless, that you should let the matter rest.

          We recommend, therefore, that you always clean the product after use.

          The patron saint of Ireland was, in fact, a Briton.

    But the trend is changing –

          I think nevertheless that you should let the matter rest.

          We recommend therefore that you always clean the product after use.

          The patron saint of Ireland was in fact a Briton.
     

    Essential and inessential clauses

    An essential clause is an integral part of a sentence and is not, therefore, enclosed in commas. An inessential clause adds supplementary or
    by-the-way information that is not necessary to the sentence and must, therefore, be enclosed in commas. In either case, the clause might
    comprise exactly the same words, so that it is the commas (or their absence) that give the subject of the sentence its meaning. For example,
    if we take the sentence –

          People should not throw stones

    and amend it to –

          People who live in glasshouses should not throw stones

    we will have added an essential clause. The underlined clause is essential because it alters the essence of the subject; the original subject people
    is changed to some people, namely those who live in glasshouses. For this reason, essential clauses are also known as defining clauses or
    restrictive clauses because they help define or in some way restrict the subject. As an essential part of a sentence, then, such a clause must not
    be cordoned off with commas.

    On the other hand, if we amend our original sentence to –

          People, who live in glasshouses, should not throw stones

    we will have added an inessential clause. The commas make all the difference. By isolating the clause from the rest of the sentence, we show that
    it has no effect on the subject; it merely adds ancillary or incidental information about the subject (in this case, the incorrect information that all
    people live in glasshouses) –

          People (who, by the way, live in glasshouses) should not throw stones.

    The basic sentence remains the same: People should not throw stones. Hence inessential clauses are also known as non-defining clauses, non-
    restrictive clauses and commenting clauses.

    Again –

          Larks that nest on the ground fly higher than most other birds

    is very different in meaning from –

          Larks, which nest on the ground, fly higher than most other birds.3

    In the first sentence, the underlined words form an essential clause; we do not mean all larks, but only those that nest on the ground. In the
    second sentence, the underlined words form an inessential clause; this time we do mean all larks, simply adding that these birds happen to
    nest on the ground.

    In distinguishing essential and inessential clauses, then, the humble comma assumes enormous importance, radically changing the meaning of
    sentences that can have exactly the same words.


    Apposition

    An appositive is a noun or noun phrase that describes another. In the phrase Oscar Peterson, the Canadian jazz pianist, for example, the noun
    phrase the Canadian jazz pianist is the appositive of – and in apposition to – Oscar Peterson.4 

    An appositive can be just one word –

          President Obama wins the Democratic primary in New Hampshire
          
    (President is the appositive of Obama)

    or many –

          The president recently visited New Orleans, the city which suffered
          catastrophic damage when Hurricane Katrina struck in 2005
          
    (The underlined is the appositive of New Orleans)

    There can also be more than one appositive –

          President Obama, one-time Senator of Illinois and civil-rights attorney
          in Chicago, wins the democratic primary in New Hampshire.

    As we have just seen, commas are not normally used to isolate appositives that are titles or epithets –

          President Obama waved to the crowd.

          Richard the Lionheart ruled England between 1189 and 1199.

          Dennis the Menace first appeared in The Beano in March 1951.

    Nor are they used, as in the above three examples, when the appositive is restrictive. This same rule is explained in essential and inessential
    clauses
    , namely, that commas must not be used when the element in some way restricts the noun or noun phrase. In other words, commas are
    omitted when the word or words provide information that is essential to the sentence.

    For example, the appositive the Lionheart restricts the subject Richard. We do not mean any Richard, nor even any king called Richard. We are 
    restricting Richard to that particular king known as the Lionheart. As an essential part of the sentence, therefore, the appositive must not be 
    isolated by commas.

    On the other hand, commas are required to isolate appositives that are non-restrictive: appositives that give us useful but inessential information –

          Richard I, the Lionheart, ruled England between 1189 and 1199.

    This time, the Lionheart is non-restrictive because it is not an essential part of the sentence – 

          Richard I ruled England between 1189 and 1199.

    We know already which king called Richard is being referred to because the restriction is in the Roman numeral after his name. The Lionheart
    merely gives us additional but unnecessary information.

    Another example might serve to drive the point home –

          My sister Mary is a fashion designer in London.

    Assuming the writer to be grammatically competent, we can tell immediately from this sentence that she has more than one sister. There are no 
    commas enclosing the appositive Mary, which means it is restrictive – restricting sister to the one called Mary in distinction to her other sisters
    (say) Kate and Louise. If the writer had had only one sister, she would be more likely to have written My sister is a fashion designer in London (the
    essential sentence) or, if she had wished to add the useful but inessential detail of her sister's name –

          My sister, Mary, is a fashion designer in London.

    But note that the second comma is omitted with the use of the possessive apostrophe –

          My sister, Marys job is fashion designer.

    With restrictive appositives, of course, there would be no commas –

          My sister Marys job is fashion designer.

    (See appositives in The Apostrophe.)

     

    The Elliptical Comma

    In formal English, an ellipsis is the omission of a duplicated word or words. For example, instead of writing –

          Anne works in local government and her partner works in industry

    we can economise by omitting the repetition of works –

          Anne works in local government and her partner, in industry.

    Traditionally, as above, the ellipsis is preceded by a comma, but the rule is often ignored today. It should at any rate be ignored where an unsightly
    number of commas would otherwise appear –

          Mark ordered a prawn biriani, Dawn, a vegetable korma, Jane,
          a chicken tikka and Paul, a beef madras.

    The inclusion here of both listing and elliptical commas (the latter avoiding the repetition of ordered) is rather ungainly. The sentence is better
    expressed with listing commas only –

          Mark ordered a prawn biriani, Dawn a vegetable korma, Jane
          a chicken tikka and Paul a beef madras.

     

    Direct Address

    Commas are also used to mark off people’s names when they are directly addressed, wherever the name appears in the sentence –

          John, Im not sure that its such a good idea after all.

          Im not sure, John, that its such a good idea after all.

          Im not sure that its such a good idea after all, John.

     

    Direct Speech

    Opinion is divided on this use of the comma. It is traditional to use one when announcing a quotation –

          Socrates said, ‘No one does wrong willingly

    but the modern tendency is to do without it –

          Socrates said No one does wrong willingly.

    (See direct speech and reproduced text.)

    But a comma should be used after an introductory phrase, whether or not what follows is a quotation –

          According to Socrates, no one does wrong willingly.

    (See introductory adverbs and phrase above.)

     

    Fused Sentences

    A fused or run-on sentence is a grammatical error in which two or more sentences are incorrectly written as one. Instead of a full stop or semicolon,
    the writer uses a comma or nothing at all –

          You need take no action, however you might wish to keep
          this letter for your records.

    Corrected –

          You need take no action. However, you might wish to keep this letter
          for your records.

    Or take this notice that appeared in the staff car park of a further education college one Monday morning –

                        NO PARKING
          RESERVED FOR INSPECTORS

    'Quite right!' some would say; inspectors should take their chances parking along with everyone else.

    Unlike most punctuation errors, sentence fusion is common among writers of all educational backgrounds –

          Tesco is a major retailer that sells everything from groceries to electrical
          equipment it also has its own finance scheme with the Royal Bank of
          Scotland. 

          (BTEC First Diploma student)

    Corrected –

          Tesco is a major retailer that sells everything from groceries to electrical
          equipment. It also has its own finance scheme with the Royal Bank of
          Scotland.

          Council employees are now given the opportunity to develop themselves
          through training more so than before, this is identified in the appraisal
          process which every member of staff now goes through each year, these
          are mainly appraisee led. 

          (MBA student)

    Corrected –

          Council employees are now given the opportunity to develop themselves
          through training more so than before. This is identified in the appraisal
          process which every member of staff now goes through each year. These
          are mainly appraisee led.

          The results of the survey showed the possibilities of upward mobility, the
          managerial group particularly showed the transition from social grade C
          to B. 

          (HNC Business student)

    Corrected –

          The results of the survey showed the possibilities of upward mobility. The
          managerial group particularly showed the transition from social grade C
          to B.

          The prolonged recession didn't radicalise most voters (it never does),
          rather it made 
    them more cautious.
          (Neil Kinnock)5

    Corrected –

          The prolonged recession didn't radicalise most voters (it never does);
          it made them more cautious. 

          (Note that the semicolon makes the adverb rather unnecessary.)

    However, it is often better to keep the sentence as one by means of a conjunction –

          You need take no action, but you might wish to keep this letter for your
          records

    or a change of tense –

          The results of the survey showed the possibilities of upward mobility, the
          managerial group particularly showing the transition from social grade C
          to B.

    Even novelists sometimes fuse their sentences, especially in dialogue, though whether through ignorance of grammar or a self-appointed artistic
    licence is anyone’s guess –

          She knew all she had to know, she had experienced all she had to experience,
          she was fulfilled in a kind of bitter ripeness, there remained only to fall from
          the tree into death. 

          (D. H. Lawrence, Women in Love)

     

    Sentence Fragments (Incomplete Sentences)

    By definition, an incomplete ‘sentence’, or sentence fragment, has one or more of its necessary components missing, usually the subject, verb or
    both –

          Like this sentence.

    The fragment often belongs to another sentence (usually the one before) and is the opposite of the fused sentence; instead of two sentences in one
    (with a comma in place of a full stop), we get one sentence in two (with a full stop in place of a comma) –

          Most services of the NHS are free at the point of delivery. Although
          charges are sometimes made for such things as cosmetic surgery.

    Corrected –

          Most services of the NHS are free at the point of delivery, although
          charges are sometimes made for such things as cosmetic surgery.

    Unlike fused sentences, however, sentence fragments have legitimate uses. They are perfectly acceptable in speech and written dialogue, for
    example, especially in direct questions and answers –

          Where are you off to this year? (Complete)
          Rome. (Fragment)
          Why Rome again? (Fragment)
          Because its so beautiful. (Fragment)

    They are also used in narrative to emulate disjointed thoughts. The justification is that since, for the most part, we neither speak nor think in
    perfect sentences, it would be misleading of writers to portray us as if we did –

          I searched the wardrobe. Nothing. The dresser, then? Damn! Someone
          had been here before me. Someone. But who?

    Sentence fragments are common, too, in journalistic articles as short exclamations, usually following one or two lengthy sentences –

          How things have changed!

          So much for justice!

    and as a means of emphasis –

          Its remarkable that almost every smoker we meet says that he or she
          intends to kick the habit. They remind me of the words of St Augustine:
          God grant me chastity and continence. Only not yet.

    In more formal scripts, such as academic essays, sentence fragments are usually confined to titles and headings. The only exceptions are the 
    occasional sentences that begin with conjunctions, typically AndButForOr and Yet. Although this is technically incorrect, there has hardly
    been a writer who has not begun a sentence in this way, and the practice can make for easier reading when the preceding sentence is lengthy
    or the subject matter intellectually demanding –

          A few examples of Hegels dialectic may serve to make it more intelligible.
          He begins the argument of his logic by the assumption that the Absolute
          is Pure Being; we assume that it just is, without assigning any qualities to
          it. But pure being without any qualities is nothing; therefore we are led to
          the antithesis: The Absolute is Nothing’.
          (Bertrand Russell) 6

    Russell might have chosen to open his last sentence with However, but too many of these conjunctive adverbs tend to irritate readers. On
    occasions such as this, then, it makes sense to allow ease of reading to override grammatical correctness. Similarly, But may be used to open
    paragraphs (such as the next) that make a counterpoint to the one before and where an optional conjunctive adverb would again be in danger of
    becoming repetitious.

    But sentence fragments are used with far less excuse simply to create a spurious sense of importance –

          But there is no one set of skills which can guarantee success. Just as
          there is no one perfect essay. And no perfect answer for any topic.

    This passage, which ironically appears in a book on how to write essays, does not contain one legitimate sentence. There might be an excuse
    for opening the passage with a conjunction, but it should otherwise comprise one sentence, not three –

          But there is no one set of skills which can guarantee success, just as
          there is no one perfect essay and no perfect answer for any topic.

    Apart from the legitimate exceptions explained above, sentence fragments are substandard English. They are the hallmarks of advertising and
    the popular press, where information is fed to readers in small, easily digested portions. They will almost certainly patronise educated readers.

     

    ____________

    It might be argued that the first comma is a joining comma, giving us the basic sentence They discussed the problem for hours, but found no solution. 
       But the addition of as usual would then either require another two commas for isolation, giving us the rather inelegant They discussed the problem for
       hours, but, as usual, found no solution 
    or, since the addition is sufficiently short, require no commas at all: They discussed the problem for hour, but
       as usual found no solution
    .
    2 Authors are not always consistent with this use of commas, as the following two excerpts show: (a) Helen rose languidly and, stooping to the lunch 
       basket at her 
    feet, produced from it a battered-looking watermelon (M. M. Kaye, Death in Kashmir, Minotaur, New York, 2009, p. 93); (b) She
       shivered, and closing the 
    curtains against the white night, fell into an easy sleep (Ibid., p. 104).
    Note that with animals and things, in distinction to people, essential clauses take the relative pronoun that and inessential clauses, which (see that, which and who).
    4 Sources disagree about whether the appositive is always the descriptive element. If we change the order of the elements to The Canadian jazz pianist, 
       Oscar Peterson, some sources now regard Oscar Peterson as the appositive while others still take it to be the noun phrase. We assume here that either 
       element can be construed as the appositive of the other.
    5 Neil Kinnock writing for BBC News, 22 February 2000. Accessed 03.09.03.
    6 Bertrand Russell, History of Western Philosophy, Unwin University Books, London, 1961, p. 704.

    This post was edited by inky at November 27, 2020 10:20 AM MST
      November 27, 2020 9:21 AM MST
    1

  • 53526

     

    “I'm rarely completely sure.
    I was raised with British English which is still the officially correct standard in Australia.”

         (English, which is)


      November 27, 2020 10:20 AM MST
    0