Guys want hot cars and hot jobs to attract hot babes. Musicians know gals will be at their concerts. Are all of them pigs or just a few?

Thank you for taking the time to offer such an excellent analysis in reply to my question officegirl. I appreciate it a lot. I agree with what you wrote. If what they did weren't effective they'd stop doing it but it often is so whose fault is that? Happy Tuesday m'dear and thanks again! :) I'm going to read it again!  I rarely do that! :)

((hugs)) You know what? You talk a dark game m'dear but why do you think I stick around? Because you are a lot more than you are willing to admit and frankly this admission shocks me. Good for you! I promise I won't snitch on you. I can't promise others won't read this but it won't have come from me. I guarantee! Thank you for a swell answer Ele. I know there are really good guys out there. My dad was one. My son is one. My Jim is one. And along the way I have been fortunate enough to meet and get to know others. It's just that the rotten ones get all the press/attention.  Rarely is a good guy in the headlines. I'm gonna ask that question.  SIGH. Happy Tuesday Ele! :)

Boy, ain't that the truth!

I somehow doubt that just like I doubt the 50% divorce rate (or are you extrapolating from that number). I do think that there are a lot of repeat offenders though. 

The studies vary. One study says 1/3 of all marriages involve infidelity, while others put the cheating rate for married men as high as 72%. I'm not looking for a study on it right now, but I know women vs men cheating has largely equalized in the UK. In the US, women still lag a bit behind men. One of the  studies I just saw today said that someone who cheats is 350% more likely to cheat again. So, you're right on that account. 

It's difficult to put a true number on it, but I think about half is a fair assessment, given the huge differences between studies. In any case, a ton of people cheat... perhaps even the majority. And, regardless of which statistics or studies you agree with, the exact number doesn't really matter. It has nothing to do with anything mentioned in the question. It just happens. A lot. 

The divorce rate thing is inaccurate as well, but again, it varies based on the study. How long of a time period are they measuring? What demographics are they looking into? I could point out that millennials don't really get divorced much at all. Only 3% have been divorced. Maybe they're on the right track. They're getting married later than generations prior. Equally, we haven't given them much life to screw up yet. lol We'd have to watch the numbers for another 10-20 years to see if they do better. And, people who are remarrying also weigh into the total divorce rate. Subsequent marriages are far more likely to end in divorce than first marriages. This particular blog on Psychology Today works it out... If you're getting married for the first time today, there's a 75% chance you'll stay married. If you're getting married for the second or third time, there's a 75% chance you'll divorce. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/heart-the-matter/201704/do-half-all-marriages-really-end-in-divorce 

And the 75% number for being more likely to get a divorce the 2nd, or 3rd or . . . time speaks to the "repeat offender" issue. Usually those studies speak to the number of divorces in a given time period (like annually) compared to the total number of married couples. They don't chec to see if either party to the divorce is a frequent flier in family court (at least usually not). The same people get counted repeatedly so the actual number of divorced PEOPLE is a fair bit lower than that 50% that's being repeatedly reported.

Millennials are also not rushing to the alter. In fact, many are avoiding the alter altogether. The only real reason to get married these days is for the sake of the children. And while it used to be that having a child out of wedlock was a bad thing, scorned by many people, not so much these days. Combine that with the fact that men usually come out on the raw end of marriage when it goes sour that's not a great surprise. 

Oh, I wouldn't be using Pop Psychology as a definitive reference for such data either. (My psych professors even HATED it back 40-years ago, would automatically fail a paper if it had reference to it.) Just sayin . . .

I see. It's far better to cite unsubstantiated personal opinions, like men coming out worse than women in divorces, than it is to provide any form of reference. Thank you for correcting me. In that case, men are usually pigs and a-holes. I rest my case. :p

You started it as you had no data to back up your claims, just some vague reference to Psychology Today. I merely stated that men generally fare worse in a divorce than do women. Every man that I know that's gone through one had that experience. You, on the other hand, because you disagree with my opinion (I don't see any data from you to back your unsaid assertion that I'm wrong) appear to be compelled to launch a personal attack on me by referring to me(n) as pigs and a-holes. I could counter with that by pointing out that women are lazy gold-digging bit*** and sl***, but I didn't. So it would seem that the TOS rules don't apply to you at the moment. But if you had any decency and self-respect you would delete the posting and suspend yourself for a term of 48-hours, just like you would do to anyone else. This post was edited by Salt and Red Pepper at October 9, 2017 9:51 PM MDT

Umm... I included three different links in my response. The last one happened to be a Psychology Today article that referenced the chances of a marriage surviving. The other two were regarding studies on the prevalence of cheating. 

I was being facetious with my response. Sarcasm or satire to prove a point. I don't think men are dumb or a-holes. And, the emoticon was included to clue you in to the eye roll I was giving my computer as I wrote it. A useless and unfounded generalization such as that is no more valid nor helpful than your personal observations on who fares worse in a divorce. That was my point. It was no attack on you, but it certainly was a criticism of your viewpoint. Which, last I checked, was a-ok in the aMug rule book. One would think, that if I made a point of saying "all people cheat" and I denounce women with my response, I'm probably not a man-hater going off on a tangent, despite how my response may have been interpreted. Should I feel the need to be sarcastic again, I'll try to make it even more obvious. Perhaps with a gigantic meme or bold font that provides a disclaimer ahead of time explaining I'm being sarcastic. 

All this about "studies" and "pop psychology" and "Psychology Today" I suppose has some entertainment value but what about real life?  Do we read such things and them use them as keys to how to behave?  Or do we use such so-called "statistics" to comfort ourselves and condemn others?  And why should anyone seeking a happy second or third or whatever marriage want to hear that it will most likely not last? 

We can get on our high horses and condemn the behavior of others but then we find ourselves searching for justifications when we become guilty of the same behavior.  Or , worse I guess, we end up condemning ourselves to a life of unhappiness.  Anything that so quantifies ignores personality and individuality.  That people "cheat" is meaningless. What is important is why they do in particular situations, particular lives.  Which goes much deeper than just "cheating" vs. not "cheating".

The notion that men "come out worse" in a divorce than we do seems to upset JA.  But I have known many men who take the hurt very hard and sometimes so hard they then give up entirely on relationships. In general I would say most of us are able to be more resilient than men.  I don't know - people I encounter learn from their mistakes so their second marriages are pretty stable if less starry-eyed than their first.  People tend to learn from life and not burden them with as many expectations as their first.  My husband had an affair after twenty years of marriage which ended his first - because the way they thought that was just automatic in those circumstances.  So his conclusion was that the absolute sexual fidelity model of marriage did not work.  And both he and his ex became  much freer sexually in their subsequent marriage. So good news for someone like myself who had largely given up on marriage because I knew I would never be able to conform to such a restrictive model. And other couples we know after twenty, thirty years of fidelity are now exploring other options and staying together. 

JA suspend herself for 48 hours?  Goodness what would this site be w/out her? 

Oh man. Now we're having two debates that are unrelated tot he topic, with people I have established track records of disagreeing with on the topics they're going after. lol

SRP and I have had the discussion before. He isn't talking about emotional trauma. He's talking about how women rob men blind in divorces and ruin their lives. A philosophy I wholeheartedly disagree with. But, I'm not going to argue on it anymore because it's an opinion. There aren't any "facts" being stated here... just one person's opinion, so debating it is moot. 

And, OG, you and I have discussed scientific research before. I believe that the only way we can understand ourselves, and our true natures, is through research. Sometimes, it is comforting, and other times, human nature is quite dark. I do use behavioral science to help me make sense of the world around me. If you choose not to take a research-based approach to life, that's entirely your call. But, like my "discussion" with SRP here, that leaves nothing for me to discuss with you. Different strokes for different folks and all that jazz.

On any subject that is politically sensitive, it's difficult to find unbiased research. It's possible to spin data to show whatever one wants.

Marriage is the foundation of society, so society would NEVER admit that it sucked for either gender. Telling men that marriage is a raw deal would be like the fed saying that a crash is coming and advising everyone to dumb their stock. It NEVER happens. The system will put out research that is in the interests of society, not in the interests of the individual.

One thing is certain. Men don't want to get married these days. Whether it actually is a raw deal can be debated. Though an ever increasing number of men THINK it's a raw deal. So unless women start sweetening the deal marriage will continue its decline. This post was edited by Zeitgeist at October 10, 2017 2:04 PM MDT

Eh, so you're basically saying that any research that backs up what I say is invalid because you don't agree with the premise. So, no matter what I find, and no matter who wrote it, you're going to discount it because it doesn't jive with your opinion. *shrugs* What else is left to do but to leave you to your opinion, then?

Hey...How about me?