Discussion»Questions»Religion and Spirituality» So, was it the 13th apostle Paul who told you the law was abolished and obeying the Lord's commands not so important? The same Paul
So, was it the 13th apostle Paul who told you the law was abolished and obeying the Lord's commands not so important? The same Paul
who on the road to Damascus was visited by Jesus the same Jesus whose image is in most churches today and after Yahshua foretold every eye would see him when next he returned?
Paul was riding along the road in Damascus, I guess. He was struck blind on route to bring some poor Christians to justice. Some poor people he was hurting by forcing them to be imprisoned and beaten.
Out of the blue a lightening bolt came out of the sky, knocked him off his horse and a voice "SAUL SAUL WHY DOST THOU PERSECUTE ME" resounded at least in Paul's head or maybe everywhere. It was afterall, God talking. He can do what He wants.
Paul was struck blind but finally saw GOD for True. He repented and gained back his sight.
So he became an Apostle after the fact. But he was FERVENT.
You are babbling. Paul was the 15th apostle (order uncertain), nobody saw Jesus on the road to Damascus, nobody knows whose image is in most churches today, Jesus has not returned yet, and Paul never said the law was abolished.
The bible names 18 apostles and alludes to 7 more, total of 25.
Thanks, I never tried to put a number on them. Andronicus and Junias aren't really named as apostles though. Also not sure about Epaphroditus, with the context, he is mentioned as 'your messenger' just like the word apostolos is used for 'sent' in John 13:16. As far as apostles today or divine revelations today that go beyond the scriptures, I don't agree with that.
(Acts 1:26) So they cast lots over them, and the lot fell to Mat·thiʹas, and he was counted along with the 11 apostles. (Galatians 1:19) But I did not see any of the other apostles, only James the brother of the Lord. (Acts 14:14) However, when the apostles Barʹna·bas and Paul heard of it, they ripped their garments and leaped out into the crowd and cried out: (1 Corinthians 4:6-9) Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it? 8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. (1 Thessalonians 1:1) Paul, Sil·vaʹnus, and Timothy, to the congregation of the Thes·sa·loʹni·ans in union with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: May you have undeserved kindness and peace. (1 Thessalonians 2:6) Nor have we been seeking glory from men, either from you or from others, though we could be an expensive burden as apostles of Christ. (Philippians 2:25) But for now I consider it necessary to send to you E·paph·ro·diʹtus, my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your envoy and personal servant for my need, (2 Corinthians 8:23) If, though, there is any question about Titus, he is my companion and a fellow worker for your interests; or if there are questions about our brothers, they are apostles of congregations and a glory of Christ. (Romans 16:7) Greet An·dronʹi·cus and Juʹni·as, my relatives and fellow prisoners, who are men well-known to the apostles and who have been in union with Christ longer than I have. (Hebrews 3:1) Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge—Jesus.
1. "nobody saw Jesus on the road to Damascus" I looked it up and found three somewhat confused references to Paul's encounter on the road to Damascus
a] in Acts 9:3-7 "suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, .... I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: .............. go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."
b] in Acts 22:6-10 "suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, ..... I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. ....... And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do"
c] in Acts 26:12-18 "I saw in the way a light from heaven, ....... And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, ...... he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. ...... I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
and
2. "Paul never said the law was abolished." I see from Acts 21:20-24 that when Paul was summoned to Jerusalem James told him about the "many thousands of Jews there are which believe (in Jesus); and they are all zealous of the law" and continued, “but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs” James therefore advised Paul to make repentance, purify himself of sacrilege, and thereafter “walk orderly and keep the law,”
Also Paul's letters are full of statements against the law. A small sample shows us that In Galatians 4:5 he taught that Jesus was born “to buy freedom for us who were slaves to the law” In Galatians 3:13 he says, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" In Ephesians 2:15 that Jesus ended hostility between Jews and Gentiles "by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations.” In Galatians 5:1 Paul continues "Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law"
"we can not fulfill so can only be condemned by it" but surely the general idea of making laws is to get people to fufil them for their own benefit. Take the road traffic laws as an example. They are there for people to fulfil them for their own benefit.
Paul didn't say the Law was abolished, only that you would not be saved by the Law. It echoes Jesus' words that the Law had been fulfilled. That didn't mean that it was erased and forgotten, only that its purpose to lead man to Christ had been fulfilled.
Galatians 3:23-25
"But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. "
I'm fascinated by Paul, considering that he has written almost half the New Testament, that much of our interpretation of Christianity comes from his writings. His is the largest voice in the NT after the sayings of Jesus himself. But I think the Pauline texts are also sometimes misunderstood more than any other part of the Bible.
This post was edited by Benedict Arnold at December 2, 2017 4:17 PM MST
In the 19th century Americans started moving west and three institutions went with them. There was vaudeville, traveling entertainment. There was lyceum, traveling education and culture. And there was the itinerant preacher, offering a new style of preaching called "hell fire and brim stone". It was very entertaining, only loosely based on scripture, and pastors didn't even try to compete. Instead they switched to preaching public morality and philosophy.
Eventually an entire generation grew up not knowing the first thing about the religion they claimed to believe. That is why most Christian churches don't teach doctrines, and most members don't know what they are supposed to believe.
1. Like your post. It's very interesting, especially the last paragraph. To your "he has written almost half the New Testament" one could add that most of the books of the NT are attributed to him. Your observation that "much of our interpretation of Christianity comes from his writings" is quite incisive. Whereas it is said that Matthew wrote to appeal to the Jews it can be said that Paul wrote for the Genties. With a copy of a red letter Bible in front of us we can go further than your "His is the largest voice in the NT after the sayings of Jesus himself." We can very easily see that his words far exceed those of Jesus throghout his earthly mission.
2. You say "Paul didn't say the Law was abolished" but in his letters one can find many statements teaching against the law. A small sample shows us that
In Galatians 4:5 he taught that Jesus was born “to buy freedom for us who were slaves to the law” In Galatians 3:13 he says, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" In Ephesians 2:15 that Jesus ended hostility between Jews and Gentiles "by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations.” In Galatians 5:1 Paul continues "Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law"
3. I find your view that the law's "purpose to lead man to Christ had been fulfilled." rather intriguing. I certainly agree that once you reach your destination in a road journey without any danger or harm to yourself or any other road user then the purpose of the road traffic laws [for that journey] has been fuffilled. But how a law that is supposed to guide a group of people through life is fulfilled while this group of people is still in its journey of life is a bit baffling to me.
Not sure what you mean by believe. They're there in both scrolls in the ark and book form, and we read from them every week.
This post was edited by Stu Spelling Bee at December 2, 2017 5:08 PM MST
Not sure what you don't understand? In the past when I have posted verses from the Torah or Prophets, you have expressed that it sounded a bit hokey to you. I took that as you didn't really believe in the Torah or Prophets or whatever you want to call the Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures. Your comments come off more like an Atheist or someone that doesn't believe that Jehovah, Yahweh, Yehaweh the LORD or whatever substitute you use will act.
For example do you believe in the timing of the Messiah recorded at Daniel 9:24-27? Do you believe that at His death 3.5 years after his anointing as the Messiah that He would cause sacrifice and offering to cease?
Do you believe in the future earthly paradise described in the Hebrew scriptures like Psalms 37; Isaiah 11; Isaiah 65; etc?
Q "So, was it the 13th apostle Paul who told you the law was abolished and obeying the Lord's commands not so important? The same Paul who on the road to Damascus was visited by Jesus the same Jesus whose image is in most churches today and after Yahshua foretold every eye would see him when next he returned?"
If one looks at the New Testament one can see that yes, if Paul is to be considered an apostle or disciple of Jesus then he must be the 13th apostle/disciple. The only one who never met Jesus in person, but who, according to three somewhat contradicting passages in Acts, had a vision on his way to Damascus in which Jesus spoke to him. It is after this reported vision that Saul became Paul and diverted his focus from rounding up and delivering for punishment heretical Jews [those who accepted Jesus as the Messiah and followed the law of Moses] to teaching that the law of Moses was abolished. But he went further than just saying that "obeying the Lord's commands [is] not so important" In Galatians 4:5 he taught that Jesus was born “to buy freedom for us who were slaves to the law” and in Galatians 5:1 issued a stern warning saying, "Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law"
Not Sure 