Discussion » Questions » Military » Some folks opt out of serving their country for "religious" reasons OR because they are rich privileged COWARDS. Right?

Some folks opt out of serving their country for "religious" reasons OR because they are rich privileged COWARDS. Right?

The burden of fighting wars rests on the shoulders of the very few. It isn't fair. It is what it is. Those who manipulate their way out of serving their country in the military are certainly not patriots. But are they really so bad or just normal human beings who don't want to die?  What's so awful about that?

Posted - December 5, 2017

Responses


  • 2657
    As far as Christians not going to war, they are not afraid of dying as they are often killed for not going to war where at least then they would have a fighting chance. They do not want to kill others. As evidenced in the World Wars and civil wars, most religions have no qualms against killing their brothers or anyone else if they are on the wrong side of a political agenda, national boundary, religious ideology, etc.

    (2 Corinthians 10:3, 4) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.
    (Luke 6:27, 28) “But I say to you who are listening: Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, 28 to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.
    (Matthew 26:52) Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.
      December 5, 2017 9:17 AM MST
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  • 113301
    You can serve your country in the military by not going to the battlefield/carrying weapons tex. You work in an office or be among the cooks or entertain the troops or be a mechanic to repair the vehicles or be a doctor. When I asked the question I was thinking about those who aren't religious at all but use that excuse because no one dares question it. They are liars pretending they are religious because it is expedient..not because it is true. Thank you for your reply an d Happy Tuesday! :) This post was edited by RosieG at January 14, 2018 11:30 PM MST
      December 5, 2017 9:27 AM MST
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  • 2657
    Perhaps some may not have their conscience bothered by doing some of that.
    It may bother the conscience of some Christians to contribute towards or enable others to kill their perceived enemies. I guess that is why we all have our own conscience. 
    Maybe you can appreciate this example using a 'them' rather than an 'us'. If I were in WWII Germany, knowing that the majority of vehicles that I am fixing are likely to be used to invade another Country or be used to move troops to be able to kill Jews or other perceived undesirables, I don't think that I would be okay with that. To be forced in to service to feed the troops, I dunno what I would do, but I would rather not. 1 Cor 15:33


      December 5, 2017 9:52 AM MST
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  • 113301
    Flip your argument. You speak of  the harm that would come to others indirectly because of your efforts. What about the harm that would be  inflected upon your country's citizens?   What would be the wrong if you were a doctor and worked in makeshift hospitals near battlefields to save the lives of the wounded...your wounded? Would you rather they die ?  I appreciate your views and we each have lines we will not cross (most of us.. for some despicable people there are no lines they would not cross ). We each have to answer to our own conscience tex. It depends entirely upon what you value and how you look at life. Thank you for your thoughtful reply m'dear and Happy Monday! :)
      January 15, 2018 1:19 AM MST
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  • 2657
    You didn't really say if you agree or disagree with what I said. I'll reword it:
     If you were in WWII Germany, knowing that the majority of vehicles that you were fixing are likely to be used to invade another Country or be used to move troops to be able to kill Jews or other perceived undesirables, would you be okay doing that?

    You seem to have an us against them view.
    Do you consider us Americans to be more valuable than people of other nations?
    Do you think that God is partial?
      January 15, 2018 10:41 AM MST
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  • 113301
      You are assuming a lot which surprises me. I thought after all these years we had an understanding. I was wrong. The scenario you show is very specific and narrow and there is no wiggle room. No I would not be OKAY doing that. However you did not address my scenario. Would you not want to be able to save lives if you could by working in a hospital on the battlefield? You accuse me of avoiding your specific scenario while you are guilty of doing the same thing to me. You ignored it. Human nature I guess. Thank you for your reply. Time to take stock of things and possibly rethink relationships. Words matter.
      January 15, 2018 12:43 PM MST
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  • 2657
    Well I first specifically addressed this part of your previous comment: "You work in an office or be among the cooks or entertain the troops or be a mechanic to repair the vehicles". You seemed to have blown that off, yes?

    No disrespect intended but you did come off a bit bias or like that I should be with comments like: "your country's citizens", "the wounded...your wounded?"

    If I were a Dr, I don't see whats wrong with me taking care of anyone that comes to the hospital that I work at, (There is and has been a shortage of skilled Dr's and nurses and such almost everywhere so no need to chase around those trying to kill others) rather a general citizen or a military person that comes there.

    You really come off as if you back your Country's wars right or wrong. Not saying you do but your comments seem to reflect that from what I am writing.
      January 15, 2018 1:24 PM MST
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  • 46117
    I thought that was why religious organizations are filled with so many cowards.  Do not get me wrong.  I would not go to war if requested.  I don't believe in war, especially when it is one that I have no clue why I am in it.

    Like Viet Nam?  Who trusts the government to tell us where to go kill people after that?

    It would be fitting to hide behind saying "I am a >>>>>>> and that is why I cannot go" when in actuality it is not the religion that they honor but the fact that the religion allows them to hide.

    The rich are a lost cause.



    This post was edited by WM BARR . =ABSOLUTE TRASH at January 15, 2018 1:20 AM MST
      December 5, 2017 12:34 PM MST
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  • 2657
    On the contrary, history has shown that most religious organizations are filled with people all to willing to go to war when requested by their government or their religious leaders. 
    Seems a bit hypocritical and judgmental to say you wouldn't go to war if requested and then call everyone else that feels the same way a coward.

    Only you have a good conscience, everyone else has bad motives for doing the same thing. Really?
      December 5, 2017 2:22 PM MST
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  • 113301
    The rich buy college degrees for their children with endowments to those universities. The rich buy freedom from military service for their children and come up with any old excuse like bone spurs to get out of serving their country. The poor just do their duty.  Wealth brings many options. When you're poor your options are few. Thank you for your reply Sharon and Happy Monday! :)
      January 15, 2018 1:23 AM MST
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  • 5835
    Are you talking about the congress critters, or who? Before I try to give a straight answer, you are going to have to convince me that "serving their country" = "dying in some stupid war". IMO wars only serve weapons manufacturers and big bankers. "Serving their country" would mean refusing to fight in wars.
      December 5, 2017 9:03 PM MST
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  • 2657
    From some of your comments in different threads, you seem to be in line with many biblical principles.

    (1 Corinthians 10:20) No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons.
    (2 Corinthians 10:3, 4) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.
      January 15, 2018 10:45 AM MST
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  • 5835
    The bible only allows three exemptions from military service: a man has bought a farm and not yet tasted the first harvest, or he has taken a wife within the last year, or he is fearful and cowardly.
      February 7, 2018 9:15 PM MST
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  • 2657
    Verses and context please? 

    Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’” 
    Isa. 2:2-4: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains . . . And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” 
    2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.” 
    Luke 6:27, 28: “I say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”


    As to serving in the armed forces, what does secular history disclose about the attitude of early Christians?
    “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.
    “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.”—Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.
    “They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.
    What scriptures have always had a bearing on the attitude of true Christians toward involvement in political issues and activities?
    John 17:16: “They are no part of the world, just as I [Jesus] am no part of the world.”
    John 6:15: “Jesus, knowing they [the Jews] were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.” Later, he told the Roman governor: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—John 18:36.
    Jas. 4:4: “Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (Why is the matter so serious? Because, as 1 John 5:19 says, “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” At John 14:30, Jesus referred to Satan as being “the ruler of the world.” So, no matter what worldly faction a person might support, under whose control would he really come?)
    Regarding political involvement, what do secular historians report as being the attitude of those known as early Christians?
    “Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . They would not hold political office.”—On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia, 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238.
    “The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168.
      February 7, 2018 9:50 PM MST
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  • 5835
    What people choose to do is not a valid reference for what God commands. God gave commandments to Jews, not Christians.

    Deuteronomy 20

    5 And the officers shall speak unto the people, saying, What man is there that hath built a new house, and hath not dedicated it? let him go and return to his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man dedicate it.

    6 And what man is he that hath planted a vineyard, and hath not yet eaten of it? let him also go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man eat of it.

    7 And what man is there that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.

    8 And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren's heart faint as well as his heart.

    Four exemptions. I misremembered.
      February 9, 2018 5:25 AM MST
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  • 2657
    Quote from you: "The bible only allows three exemptions from military service: a man has bought a farm and not yet tasted the first harvest, or he has taken a wife within the last year, or he is fearful and cowardly."
    Quote from me: "Verses and context please? ..."
    Quote from you: "God gave commandments to Jews, not Christians."

    That's why I asked for the context. The Christian Greek Scriptures are part of the Bible too. Christians are not under the Mosaic Law, but the Law of the Christ. The Jews were a theocratic Nation with Jehovah's backing. No Nation can claim that today. Christians are in almost every Nation today and Christians would not even consider going to war against Christians, or nobody else for that matter. 

      February 9, 2018 12:32 PM MST
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  • 1326
    A true genuine Christian will follow the example Christ set forth. It is unimaginable he would ever consent to killing another human or engaging in an armed conflict.
      February 6, 2018 11:51 PM MST
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  • 113301
    Thank you for your reply Autumn. I agree. But a true Christian could serve his country in other ways besides taking lives. Also I'm CERTAIN many Christians have fought and died for their country and killed and thought they were doing the right thing.  Who is to say which of us is a "true" Christian and which of us just wears the label when it is convenient? Many very religions moms and dads have buried their children who were in battles and gave their lives. They are proud of what their children did for their country. That does not make them "bad" Christians does it?.  What about clergy in the military? Are they good Christians? They minister to the troops and don't take lives so they serve their country by serving people in the military who do take lives. It's a complicated issue to be sure. What isn't  these days?. This post was edited by RosieG at February 8, 2018 11:01 PM MST
      February 8, 2018 2:48 AM MST
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  • 1326
    Rosie I believe you when you say that many Christians have fought and killed thinking they did the right thing and the heroic thing. Yet scriptures such as 2timothy 2:24 which states: "For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all,... showing restraint toward all.", indicate God's viewpoint regarding what a true Christian should do, as opposed to how imitation Christians behave. As for the clergy in the military, this is what God's word says:"for such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works." (2Corinthians 11:13-15). In Jesus time the clergy of that time were guilty of the fact that through lies and deception most rejected the messiah, and had him executed. John 8:44  says:"you are from your father the devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because the truth the truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." Likewise the clergy, military or otherwise will soon be judged by God himself for the lies they have told the masses.
      February 9, 2018 12:37 AM MST
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  • 1326
    Rosie I believe you when you say that many Christians have fought and killed thinking they did the right thing and the heroic thing. Yet scriptures such as 2timothy 2:24 which states: "For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all,... showing restraint toward all.", indicate God's viewpoint regarding what a true Christian should do, as opposed to how imitation Christians behave. As for the clergy in the military, this is what God's word says:"for such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works." (2Corinthians 11:13-15). In Jesus time the clergy of that time were guilty of the fact that through lies and deception most rejected the messiah, and had him executed. John 8:44  says:"you are from your father the devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because the truth the truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." Likewise the clergy, military or otherwise will soon be judged by God himself for the lies they have told the masses.
      February 9, 2018 12:37 AM MST
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  • 5835
    A Christian is defined by Romans 8:9&10. "A true Christian" is a well known form of fallacy. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
      February 10, 2018 12:11 AM MST
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  • 2657
    Romans 8:9-10 is not the whole Bible but it is inspired so does apply. That is one of the most misapplied fallacies of all.

    Jesus showed that not everyone claiming to follow Him really does. (Kinda gotta use all relevant scriptures to set things straight. 2 Tim 3:16)

    (John 13:35) By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”
    (Matthew 7:15-23) “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men. 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

    There are false apostles.
    (2 Corinthians 11:12-15) But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.
    (1 John 4:20) If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

    (Romans 8:9, 10) However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this person does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in union with you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
      February 10, 2018 2:10 AM MST
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  • 5835
    "Romans 8:9-10 is not the whole Bible but it is inspired so does apply. That is one of the most misapplied fallacies of all."

    I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but you seem to think that everything Jesus said applies to Christians. It does not. Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews. He had no idea that there would be anything called "Christian". 
      February 11, 2018 12:57 AM MST
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  • 2657
    Why do you keep adding to what I say? (This is not the first time, check our other thread as well: https://answermug.com/forums/topic/49925/if-there-were-10-million-earth-like-planets-able-to-sustain-life/view/post_id/439197/page/2)

    (John 13:35) By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”


    Quote: ["Romans 8:9-10 is not the whole Bible but it is inspired so does apply. That is one of the most misapplied fallacies of all."

    I'm not sure what point you are trying to make]
    You just need to stay within the context of the thread and see what I was responding to to see what point I was referring to:
    Previous quote from you: [A Christian is defined by Romans 8:9&10. "A true Christian" is a well known form of fallacy. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman]

    Not everyone that says they follow Christ are really following Christ. Not everyone that says they are Napoleon is really Napoleon.

    Is your point that Jesus meant to say: By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you are Jews.”
    (John 13:35) By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”


    Notice that previously I gave scriptures more than just talking in showing that Jesus made it clear that a claim is not proof while you referred to philosophy to determine that everyone that claims Christ is following him. 
      February 11, 2018 2:57 AM MST
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