He lets all this f**ked up s**t happen and still wants us to worship him?
"Have you considered that it might be God?"
You mean God is doing all the things I listed in my answer?
Are you saying if I see or read about a crazy guy shooting people at random I've just seen or read about God?
Thought you might be. Klingons of a feather... :-)
Religious people say that He lets this happen because it is a part of a plan.
To let the universe see what can happen when the devil is allowed to run amok in this world. Which God will correct on Judgement day. And also some say that this is a test, a trial by fire for the faithful that inherit the earth after the evil is destroyed. But what do I know, this is only what I have heard from some SDA people I know.
But remember, God is love. He would not allow these things to happen without a good reason.
Thank you Nimitz
Thank you Oster1. Wasn't sure anyone would click on the link.
Yeap!. He lets you happen and still wants us to like you.
God has allowed men to rule for long enough to demonstrate that they cannot resolve mankind’s problems
Evil began on earth when Satan told the first lie. Satan was originally a perfect angel, but “he did not stand fast in the truth.” (John 8:44) He developed a desire for worship that rightly belongs only to God. Satan lied to the first woman, Eve, and persuaded her to obey him instead of God. Adam joined Eve in disobeying God. Adam’s decision led to suffering and death.—Read Genesis 3:1-6, 19.
When Satan suggested that Eve disobey God, he was starting a rebellion against God’s sovereignty, or position as Most High. The majority of mankind have joined Satan in rejecting God as their Ruler. Thus, Satan has become “the ruler of the world.”—Read John 14:30; 1 John 5:19.
All of God’s works are perfect. The humans and angels whom God created were capable of obeying God perfectly. (Deuteronomy 32:4, 5) God created us with the freedom to choose between doing good and doing evil. That freedom gives us a way to express love for God.—Read James 1:13-15; 1 John 5:3.
For a limited time, Jehovah has allowed rebellion against his sovereignty. Why? To show that no effort to rule without him benefits people. (Ecclesiastes 7:29; 8:9) After 6,000 years of human history, the evidence is clear. Human rulers have failed to eliminate war, crime, injustice, or disease.—Read Jeremiah 10:23;Romans 9:17.
In contrast to human rulership, God’s rule benefits those who accept it. (Isaiah 48:17, 18) Soon, Jehovah will bring all human government to an end. Only people who choose to be ruled by God will inhabit the earth.—Isaiah 11:9; Read Daniel 2:44.
Satan claimed that no one would serve Jehovah out of unselfish love. Would you like to disprove that lie? You can! God’s patience allows all of us to show whether we favor rule by God or rule by man. We indicate our choice by the way we live.—Read Job 1:8-12; Proverbs 27:11.
Our choices reveal whether we want God as our Ruler
We can choose God as our Ruler by seeking out and practicing true worship based on God’s Word, the Bible. (John 4:23) We can reject Satan as our ruler by keeping out of politics and war, as Jesus did.—Read John 17:14.
Satan uses his power to promote immoral, harmful practices. When we reject such practices, some friends and relatives may ridicule or oppose us. (1 Peter 4:3, 4) So we face a choice. Will we associate with people who love God? Will we obey his wise and loving laws? If we do, we prove that Satan lied when he claimed that under pressure no one would do as God says.—Read 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; 15:33.
God’s love for mankind guarantees that evil and suffering will end. Those who demonstrate that they believe this will enjoy life on earth forever.—Read John 3:16.
1- God did not compel us [gave us no option but] to do evil
2- God did not command us to do evil
3- God did the opposite, commanding us not to do evil.
4- God went further by exhorting us to do good
So apart from death and destruction caused by the forces of nature [acts of God in legal circles] how is God responsible for the evil that we choose to commit and would that be recognised in any law court?
No one ever promised that life would be easy or fair. What God wants is for us to appreciate what we have and make the most of it. Sometimes, you have to get through the bad stuff to even be able to fully appreciate the good stuff. It happens to all of us at one time or another.
Job 38
The Lord Speaks
1Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the angelsa shouted for joy?
8“Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12“Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16“Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19“What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31“Can you bind the chainsb of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasonsc
or lead out the Beard with its cubs?
33Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’se dominion over the earth?
34“Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
or gives the rooster understanding?g
37Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
why not put something on the table we can consider, rather than waiting to see whether I'll ever get to what contrary view, if any, that you have in your mind?
If obvious means that which is apparent, that which can be easily perceived by the senses then yes it is obvious that the persons who are messing up the world [polluting it, ravaging it, killing, raping, destroying, oppressing, stealing] are all human beings. Perhaps you said obvious but are really looking beyond the obvious.
[The reply arrows have disappeared]
You're being reticent again. As if you're unsure or frightened of expressing what you have in mind. It's making the discussion a bit like a difficult labour [I can almost hear it - push harder, I'm sure you can do it, come on, push] .
So in a scenario where a store has been broken into you "wouldn't accept" the people walking out of the store with unpaid for goods as the obvious looters.
Who then according to you is/are the "clear, apparent, or easy to understand" looters in that scenario?
1- “that doesn't mean the thing that you're looking for is there to find.” I don’t know what that kind of strategy, approach or game is called [is it called second guessing?] but it doesn’t appeal to me.
2- I take what you post at face value and it might smooth the progress of our discussion and help to keep it simple if you treat my posts in the same way.
3- If I can regard your if clause “If I were operating under a theistic view” as unintended and superfluous then your statement “I would accept that they were the obvious looters” would reflect my position and that of most people irrespective of their theism.
4- Would I be correct that in your statement about “the ultimate cause of the looting” you’re alluding to what motivated the looting? If so then how about greed or temptation, as examples of possible answers?
5- Can we apply your “ultimate involvement” and “ultimate cause” paragraph to the following scenario and see where it takes us. Every year there is a migration of wildebeest in Africa. At a river crossing many animals lose their footing as they clamber up the steep and slippery riverbank after the crossing and fall back into the water where the crocodiles gathered for their annual feast tear them apart alive and swallow them limb by limb. A film crew waits in anticipation for the arrival of the animals and records the crossing. The filming crew has enough resources to build bridges that would provide safe passage for the wildebeest but it never does. If we don’t factor any god into the scenario, does the crew have “ultimate involvement” and is it the “ultimate cause” of the brutal annual carnage?
You'll have to give me some time to try and get to grips with what you're saying. Your usage of phrases sometimes throws me off completely as I struggle to see what you mean. Take, for example, "If the carnage has moral implications" I sit staring at that and wonder, 'now why did he say that? Is it because of the presence of the crew? What if there was no crew [no human] present, would he still say that?' You see I think in very simple terms. To import that clause into my simple way of thinking I end up wondering 'Perhaps he means - does the carnage put any moral obligations upon us?'
Please don't respond to this post. It's here to explain why my response is taking long. Do post a nudge though, if I'm taking too long.
1- ok, I've had a review of the posts to help me understand why you sometimes make statements or put things in a way that throws me off a bit. I think there is no such thing as a neutral common ground discussion of an event as far as you are concerned. I think you regard every statement to be biased by the background of the speaker.
2- I on the other hand try to make neutral common ground observation based statements in discussions. I will provide my Islamic perspective if asked to. I will also provide comments on the statements of other contributors to a discussion and my comments will be made as a neutral common ground observer [unless I am asked to comment as a Muslim].
3- I can now better understand the frustration in your "That's why, by the way, my initial question was about what you had considered, instead of what the state of affairs, in fact, was."
4- Assuming that we each have a better understanding of how the other is approaching the discussion let us resume on the wildebeest scenario with no god factored in.
5- I think the film crew sees itself as a mere observer and objective reporter of events as they unfold - nature in operation without human interference. The crew does not see itself responsible in any way for any aspect of the migration process. The crew might have an irresistibly strong urge to do something to stop the brutal carnage it is forced to witness by its task, but it feels it would be grossly irresponsible interference if it tried to do anything.
well I sure as hell don't know either, but my 'religious' friends always say,,,,,,'He gave us free will"....as if that's the answer!! so hmmmmm...........never could make any sense of that, either!!!
"free will'....which, I think, we can do what we want, make idiots of ourselves, etc.......and He just observes, I guess?
anyway, great question and I'm hoping you are tolerant of some of the replies you're getting!! some on here are just jerks!!!!!!!!!!
LOL
:-D
Welcome back Stepper. I thought you'd lost interest
1- I’m kind of fascinated/mesmerized by “I don't think your observations are nearly as neutral or level with common ground as you might like to think, and are actually laden with quite a robust and sophisticated theological narrative.” It sounds like it’s coming from someone who knows me far better and with more certainty than I do myself. That’s a bit eerie. I mention that more to inform you of the impact than to divert our focus from the main point of our discussion. We can come back to it whenever either of us feels it’s appropriate.
2- “I'm not sure why we'd exempt God from the situation”- partly because of my desire to first examine the situation from a neutral perspective [though you might not believe that possible in view of 1 above] Also, there are many concepts of God out there which may complicate our analysis. I agree that “we'll need to return to the original topic eventually”
3- With no God [no scripture and no religious leader to refer to] I’m not sure “what their moral obligations are with respect to the situation” Could not their moral obligation be to leave well alone and not deny the crocodiles the meal that nature provides for them once a year?
4- If the scenario was that of child abduction, unless the crew were bound by a secrecy or non disclosure agreement, they would alert the appropriate authorities and even hand over their footage as evidence. That’s more clear cut, but that’s not the scenario under discussion. I could propose another scenario: Say in our travels we come across a tribe that eats its members who die from accidents, attack by wild animals or other non-disease or age related causes. It's part of their traditional rules to do so and the national government has allowed them to uphold that tradition. Nothing clear cut here. Or is there?
Clurt... WE are doing all those things true..... but if there is a god... surely he would be the only one powerful enough to stop it all... and he doesnt.
I am quite confused, but not about this.
so God is not all powerful then? and does God have no free will?
it all makes sense now
