The Anti-Christ will come to power because the Bible says he will. America being great again will have no bearing on that whatsoever. But there is something we need to address though, not all nations or individuals will bow to Anti-Christ. There will be nations and peoples that God will rise up to fight against Anti-Christ. Who knows, America could be one of those nations. We have no way of knowing that for sure.
Exactly, I believe USA will be one of those countries fighting until the end. The eagles wings are missing from the one world beast in Rev., we will not be part of the one world order.
"we will not be part of the one world order." >>> which is wiser, to first check if the one world order is a righteous one before accepting/refusing to be part of it or to refuse to be part of it without bothering to check first?
The Bible says it will be headed by the beast of Rev., commonly referred to as the Anti-Christ. And will attack Jerusalem only to be defeated by Jesus at his return to rule and reign. That is enough for me to see it will not be righteous.
This post was edited by my2cents at February 24, 2018 1:56 PM MST
1. the book of Revelations did not have unanimous approval for inclusion in the Bible.
2 it is a record of a dream or vision
3. it contains violence and is at odds with the rest of the New Testament
4. it is very metaphorical and open to wide interpretation.
5. Jerusalem has already been attacked and occupied since Revelations anyway, more than once, in fact. The latest attack and occupation is by the Zionists.
1. Doesn't matter to me if was or was not unanimous. 2. Yes, it is the recording of a vision of prophecy , many of the books of the Bible have visions of prophecy in them. 3. I do not see it as at odds with NT...Jesus speaks of the tribulation as well. 4. Yes Jerusalem has been conquered more than once by many peoples. But many earlier prophecy have not done to pass as of yet. So those can not the prophecy in Revelation. It is at the end just as Jesus returns.
If you are only interested in showing Revelation should be disregarded as false or not belonging in the Bible, you are correct I am not interested in farther discussion. This was the impression I got from your numbered response.
I just bumped into your response - I don't recall getting an alert to it.
Anyway, I simply pointed out accepted facts about Revelations and you, for reasons best known to yourself, got the impression that I was "only interested in showing Revelation should be disregarded as false or not belonging in the Bible"
You said "we will not be part of the one world order." purely because the book of Revelations said so. So I mentioned some accepted facts about the book of Revelations and historical facts about Jerusalem and wondered whether you would, despite those facts, still refuse to be part of a one wold order even if you saw with your own eyes that it was a righteous one. Thanks to you, I now know for sure. I don't have to guess or speculate.
That's one of the beauties of forums like this one. You don't have to guess about how strong/weak any belief can get, you can actually find out from real people themselves.
Hope it's clearer where I was actually coming from
"The Anti-Christ will come to power because the Bible says he will." >>> Shouldn't we be a bit careful of the "because the Bible says he will." Here's something that the Bible said will happen, but it didn't. This prophecy is not only reported in Mark 9:1 but in Luke 9:27 too. It has Jesus saying, "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." What makes that very serious is that the Bible writers have attributed that prophecy to Jesus. Now if we look at Deuteronomy 18:21-22 it says that a sure way to determine if a prophet is saying the word of God is to see if the word comes to pass. If it didn’t come to pass then it’s a false prophecy.
Well, once since you have eliminated the possibility of a triune God, you have no way to understand this:
Here we see that “the Kingdom is not a thing, it is not a geographical dominion like worldly kingdoms. It is a person; it is he. On this interpretation, the term ‘Kingdom of God’ is itself a veiled Christology. By the way in which he speaks of the Kingdom of God, Jesus leads men to realize the overwhelming fact that in him God himself is present among them, that he is God’s presence.”
That is a self-inflicted limitation you have---and I can't help that.
That kind of Christianity is like a necklace of evasions strung together. To get out of the false prophecy situation mentioned in my comment above you redefine "kingdom of God" as "a person; it is he". However, the "kingdom of God" concept occurs in other places in the Bible too. It occurs, for example, in the so called Lord's prayer where Jesus asks his followers to pray to God for the kingdom of God to come to earth so that God's will is done on earth, meaning that God's laws reign supreme on earth as they do in heaven.
"you have eliminated the possibility of a triune God, you have no way to understand this......That is a self-inflicted limitation you have---and I can't help that." >>> I'm glad you can't. This self-inflicted limitation which stops me from switching off my capacity to question and reason is a self-inflicted limitation that I hope I never lose and I hope no one who still has it ever lets go of it. That you have willingly let go of it so that you can see the "wonderful" things that reason won't allow you to, is your choice.
It's got everything to do with your not believing in the Abrahamic God and what that means to those who wish to understand Christ's life, death, and Resurrection.
It gives us a deeper insight than you have; and since you cannot match that level of insight afforded by Christianity, you have a defeasable position.
It is a side affect of reasonable but not logical argument.
Cling tightly to your small window on reality---my windows are floor to ceiling.
Edit: change under to understand.
This post was edited by tom jackson at February 24, 2018 5:16 PM MST
1. Your latest post beginning "It's got everything to do with..." doesn't appear to relate or refer to anything specifically mentioned in my last post beginning with "That kind of Christianity...." That kind of "response" will transform this thread from a smooth discussion where we respond to each other's comments into a thread where people posts unconnected comments.
2. What is this "it" which has "everything to do with your not believing in the Abrahamic God"? Where is this "it" mentioned in my last post?
3. Is your post a bid to dislodge Islam from the group of Abrahamic faiths?
4. "those who wish to understand Christ's life, death, and Resurrection" on whose terms?
5. "It is a side affect of reasonable but not logical argument. " >>> which argument are you referring to and where in it is the departure from logic?
6. "It gives us a deeper insight than you have; and since you cannot match that level of insight afforded by Christianity, you have a defeasable position." and "Cling tightly to your small window on reality---my windows are floor to ceiling." are claims meant to make you feel better at my expense. I won't bother to challenge, so enjoy.
A Kingdom is not and cannot consist of one person. As king of God's Kingdom, Jesus can represent the Kingdom and God but the Kingdom is real.
(Isaiah 9:7) To the increase of his rulership And to peace, there will be no end, On the throne of David and on his kingdom In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it Through justice and righteousness, From now on and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this. (Daniel 7:13, 14) “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.
(Daniel 2:44) “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,
(Revelation 5:9, 10) And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(Mark 9:1-9) Furthermore, he said to them: “Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.” 2 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; 3 his outer garments began to glisten, becoming far whiter than any clothes cleaner on earth could whiten them. 4 Also, E·liʹjah with Moses appeared to them, and they were conversing with Jesus. 5 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Rabbi, it is fine for us to be here. So let us erect three tents, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.” 6 In fact, he did not know how to react, for they were quite fearful. 7 And a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud: “This is my Son, the beloved. Listen to him.” 8 Then suddenly they looked around and saw that no one was with them any longer except Jesus. 9 As they were coming down from the mountain, he strictly ordered them not to relate to anybody what they had seen until after the Son of man had risen from the dead. (Luke 9:27, 28) But I tell you truly, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God.” 28 In fact, about eight days after saying these words, he took Peter, John, and James along and climbed up the mountain to pray.
Not sure it's relevant to your post that I replied to? Even though you think the Bible has been changed and is untrustworthy, I think Tom thinks even less about the Bible.
I googled a portion of his comment and it appears it has something to do with:
"I was just showing that some of those standing there saw a vision." Yes, I know. I think that's what's referred to as the transfiguration. You were perhaps alluding to that being what the prophecy of Jesus was about. I pointed to TJ's post to say that it contained a different interpretation of the prophecy.
When o-uknow asks questions within the Religion and Spirituality section, they are Bible based. When I answer a Bible based question it's Bible based. The Bible says that Anti-Christ will come to power. Which means nothing will change that fact. Of course if there's folks that don't care what the Bible says, twists what the Bible says, hate what the Bible says or don't believe what the Bible says then my answer or anyone else's answer, is meaningless. And I'm okay with that because the Bible also says that not everyone will believe what the Bible says. :)
looking for what I have no problems agreeing with I found "not everyone will believe what the Bible says." but it's also true that even among those who believe what the Bible says there are many widely differing interpretations. We can get a glimpse of thar in this thread itself.
CLURT, in regards to: "it's also true that even among those who believe what the Bible says there are many widely differing interpretations" what do you make of my comment to my2cents on February 26, 2018 7:41 AM?
If it's too much information to comment on, do you at least agree that the ram with two horns stands for the Medes and Persians and the goat stands for Greece? (The parts in color were added by me) History shows that Greece defeated them. After Alexander the Great died, his kingdom was split into four kingdoms ruled over by four of his generals.
(Daniel 8:1-9) In the third year of the kingship of King Bel·shazʹzar, a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after the one that appeared to me previously. 2 I saw the vision, and as I watched I was in Shuʹshan the citadel, which is in the province of Eʹlam; I viewed the vision, and I was next to the watercourse of Uʹlai. 3 As I raised my eyes, look! there was a ram(Medes and Persians) standing before the watercourse, and it had two horns. The two horns were tall, but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up later. 4 I saw the ram making thrusts to the west and to the north and to the south, and no wild beasts could stand before it, and there was no one who could provide rescue from its power. It did as it pleased and exalted itself. 5 As I kept watching, look! there was a male goat coming from the west crossing the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground. And the goat(Greece) had a conspicuous horn between its eyes. 6 It was coming toward the ram with the two horns, which I had seen standing before the watercourse; it was running toward it in a powerful rage. 7 I saw it closing in on the ram, and it was filled with bitterness toward it. It struck down the ram and broke its two horns, and the ram was powerless to stand up to it. It threw the ram to the ground and trampled it down, and there was no one to rescue it from its power. 8 Then the male goat exalted itself exceedingly, but as soon as it became mighty, the great horn was broken; then four conspicuous horns came up instead of the one, toward the four winds of the heavens. 9 Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration.
I honestly don't know. The differences between you and M2C illustrate what I said to M2C, that Revelation is a record of a vision and full of metaphors that are open to very wide interpretations. People can see what they want to see in them. It's a bit like the book of Nostradamus. Its fans interpret it the way they want to and then marvel at how accurate its prophecies are.
rusureamisure? 