For starters: That scientist were around to observe a big bang that started life and through each stage of evolution from a single cell organism to the blue whale. Also, every scientific theory is a proven fact and no need to read the Bible as it is nothing but myths like water covering mountains in a flood. Sea shells on mountains do not exist other than those planted by creationist. Jesus never lived but some dumb men got together and corroborated a story that numb skulls were willing to die for.
They might learn that when Adam 'ate from the tree of knowledge' which really means got an education -that he learned he was a product of evolution; the universe came into existence as a result of the big bang/big bounce and also that stealing, cheating, killiing, lying, bullying et al 'came into the world' as a means of survival for the unfittest..
This post was edited by Kittigate at May 14, 2018 1:55 PM MDT
Well when you start off with the assumption that God does not exist, the only conclusion one seems to really be able to have is that the universe should not exist.
Does it exist that way? Is that what they said? If not mistaken, recent scientific evidence suggest that the universe is expanding at a faster rate than ever before.
(Isaiah 40:26) “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name. Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing.
(Romans 1:18-23) For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19 because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable. 21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their senseless hearts became darkened. 22 Although claiming they were wise, they became foolish 23 and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and birds and four-footed creatures and reptiles.
What the bible story writers may have believed was inspiration from God was more likely they were receiving messages from their own subconscious thought as to what they might hear God say.
If one ponders something long and deeply enough you can receive inspirational thoughts from one's infinitely deep subconscious that seem reasonable at that time.
Maybe that is the means by which Mohammad achieved messages enough to complete the writings of the Quaran.
From the little that I have read of the Quran, it seems to be geared towards self preservation of the religion in the here and now as if God is not going to act so they need to fight so as to force those they deem wicked to convert or concede. The Christian Greek scriptures on the other hand are geared towards the future as if God will act on behalf of the righteous so no need for the Christian to try to eliminate wicked people through force.
Small sample of contrast and likely one of the reasons Muslims speak against Paul: Sura 2: (189) And fight in the Way of Allâh[] those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihâd, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)]. (190) And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah[] is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-Al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah),[] unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. (191) But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (192) And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers.)
Sura 3: (139) If a wound (and killing) has touched you, be sure a similar wound (and killing) has touched the others. And so are the days (good and not so good), We give to men by turns, that Allâh may test those who believe, and that He may take martyrs from among you. And Allâh likes not the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong¬doers). (140) And that Allâh may test (or purify) the believers (from sins) and destroy the disbelievers (141) Do you think that you will enter Paradise before Allâh tests those of you who fought (in His Cause) and (also) tests those who are As-Sâbirun (the patient)?
Sura 8: (11) (Remember) when your Lord revealed to the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes." (12) This is because they defied and disobeyed Allâh and His Messenger. And whoever defies and disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, then verily, Allâh is Severe in punishment (13) This is (the torment), so taste it, and surely for the disbelievers is the torment of the Fire. (14) O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve, in a battle-field, never turn your backs to them.
(Romans 12:17-21) Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good. (2 Corinthians 10:3-5) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; (2 Timothy 2:23-25) Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. 24 For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged, 25 instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth,
Different form of messages from the same God. The messages 'from God' are messages from the person's deep subconscious what that person might think God would say or expect God would say. Same like if you were conversing with someone during your dream time; the person you are conversing with is saying what you might expect them to say in your subconscious state. You are conversing with yourself.
first of all, a very simple fact not very difficult to grasp, it's not "the Quaran" but The Qur'an. As The = Al in Arabic, the scripture is Al-Qur'an in Arabic = The Recitation, in English.
Supposing The Qur'an were the product of Mohammed's "infinitely deep subconscious that seem reasonable at that time." would that render it invalid as a set of guidance and information?
1 Are they 'wild and crazy' because they're Arab people?
2 The nearly eight century lead in human development and advances inspired by the message benefited the whole world or only "the 'wild and crazy' Arab people"?
3 If the message was meant to be delivered "for the benefit of the 'wild and crazy' Arab people" how come 85% of the nearly 1.8 Billion followers of the message are non-Arabs?
I understand that you're "..referring to the time of the 6th century -before the Islamic religion began" and it is those Arabs that you're referring to as "the 'wild and crazy' Arab people" but the questions I asked are still worth thinking about - in the interest of mutual understanding, countering popular prejudices, and fostering good relations.
Most effective means to tame down and control 'wild and crazy' people regardless who they are is to make up stories of a fearsome powerful loving God that become a religion. Far more effective than any kind of law enforcement.
since you made the comparison with secular law let's see what secular law would say about individuals who live under secular law but reject [disbelieve] it. What do you think would/should be the appropriate "punishment" for them? [If you find it easier then think in terms of a club member who rejects club rules or a family member who rejects the family rules and then extend to secular national laws]
texasescimo 