Discussion»Questions»Religion and Spirituality» Dysfunctional people need to lie, steal, cheat, bully, be envious, etc. in order to survive so why should those be considered as sins?
Would your question still make sense to you if you included murder as one of those "necessities?"
The society in which these dysfunctional people function must deal with two aspects of their acts---the acts themselves and the reasons behind those actions.
And who else besides the individuals who act would you hold responsible for the actions of those dysfunctional individuals?
And upon whom else would you place the absolute responsibility to cease and desist from those actions?
I'm all for remediation, but the cessation and control of such acts is the priority.
'Course murder would be included as it is sort of like cheating say if you wanted the boss' job and that helped you get it or bumping off the guy who is dating your gal.
People need to realize the fact that true happiness is achieved by good behavior and not causing harm to anyone.
We are suspectable to inherit a gene that makes one inclined to do the wrong things; says in the bible something like it takes four generations of correct behavior for that bad gene to disappear. 'Course there are various environmental influences to consider as well.
The important thing is to determine if the wrong doer is suitably open minded to accept some kind of treatment if they are not too hardcore.
Dunno what kind of establishment could be made to deal with this issue but I think there way too many people in jails as punishment and little is being done to benefit them in any positive way.
It's a good and interesting point.. but the thing is.. usually these people don't need to lie, cheat etc to survive... they just do it anyway.. a big business man who got where he is by lying, and taking advantage of employers and contractors and doing dodgy deals, loads of bankruptcies etc. does he NEED to do these things? No, because one can achieve the same by behaving honestly..
And this kinda feeds into the rehabilitation front the point is that these people often cannot be helped because they abjectly refuse to believe, consider or see that their behaviour isn't ok... So while some may be able to be turned to a better path where they treat people better.... I am not sure most could..
Take lying too.. when I was a child I used to lie a lot.. and then I stopped, mainly because my mum said she could tell when I was lying... and I thought she could... and from that day on I haven't lied.. my point being I could have continued to lie and became dysfunctional.. for it's the lying and the repercussions and exacerbations that cause this dysfunctionality I believe but we can't say I couldn't survive without lying
It is dysfunctional (in fact, sociopathic) to believe these things are required for one’s survival, so it is imperative to address the underlying dysfunction. That starts with confronting its reality.
Sins and crimes are different things. We don’t punish sins (that is the purview of the God of Abraham) until they break our laws, at which point they become crimes. Think how many cases of dysfunction are overlooked (despite known “sins“) until a crime is committed.
This post was edited by Don Barzini at April 18, 2018 8:31 PM MDT
Why is this in the religion section? Are you against having any rules or laws? Therapy would be a good thing for those willing but if not you think that punishment just makes things worse? It would seem that to ignore it that perpetrators would keep perpetrating.
There are usually consequences for much of what you mentioned though not necessarily punishment from someone else. Depending on the lie, there might be consequences beyond a guilty conscience like distrust of a close friend or spouse. Stealing and cheating may have consequences beyond conscience if caught by the law, spouse or whatever. I think the time of bullies being brushed off as just 'boys being boys' has been around long enough to show it should be dealt with by someone. Envy without action likely just your disturbed conscience no punishment necessary. My opinion anyway.
Sin is a crime against God, punishable by God unless the person repents and makes atonement for any harm done but can a person simply repent without counseling/therapy? Where does the bible provide for that?
Maybe 'sin' should be regarded as indicative of a dysfunctional person's means of survival and instead of punishment they should be counselled. Maybe Adam's disobedience could have been regarded as just a slight temporary dysfunction and God could have counselled him not to do no more 'specially snce he was just a new guy.
'Course servere punishment/jail time should be awarded for more major wrongdoings.
This post was edited by Kittigate at April 19, 2018 11:19 AM MDT
I am not sure where you are coming from or where you are going? The Bible gives council and admonishes mature Christians to council others. In the Christian congregation, Christians are given encouraging council and only unrepentant or persistent wrong doers are disfellowshipped.
(Galatians 6:1, 2) Brothers, even if a man takes a false step before he is aware of it, you who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness. But keep an eye on yourself, for fear you too may be tempted. 2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and in this way you will fulfill the law of the Christ.
(2 Peter 3:9) Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. (Romans 2:4) Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, because you do not know that God in his kindness is trying to lead you to repentance?
(Proverbs 11:14) When there is no skillful direction, the people fall, But there is success through many advisers. (Proverbs 15:22) Plans fail when there is no consultation, But there is accomplishment through many advisers. (Proverbs 28:13) The one covering over his transgressions will not succeed, But whoever confesses and abandons them will be shown mercy. (James 5:14-16) Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the elders of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, applying oil to him in the name of Jehovah. 15 And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man’s supplication has a powerful effect. (2 Timothy 4:2) Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. (1 Corinthians 15:34) Come to your senses in a righteous way and do not practice sin, for some have no knowledge of God. I am speaking to move you to shame. (2 Timothy 2:24-26) For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged, 25 instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him to do his will.
EDIT: Just noticed: "Maybe Adam's disobedience could have been regarded as just a slight temporary dysfunction and God could have counselled him not to do no more 'specially snce he was just a new guy." Adam and Eve were created perfect.
(Genesis 1:27) And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:31) After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day. (Deuteronomy 32:4) The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he. (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. (1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.
They had it pretty easy. (Genesis 1:28-30) Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.” 29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so. (Genesis 2:16, 17) Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”
This post was edited by texasescimo at April 19, 2018 1:05 PM MDT
Ok I was not really aware of all that. I was just thinking of 'cut off your right hand if it offend you' and stuff like that.
I could have become a JW one time -i'd got dragged to a Pentecostal church by some well meaning people where I stayed around for about a year and half. I heard about people talking about 'the Lord led me to this church or that church' where they had started out at Faith (Faith Tabernacle Halifax NS) so I mentioned I was interested in visiting a 'Jehovah Witnesse church' . But I got screamed at for such a horrible idea. I was pretty interested in bible studis at the time so if I had gone I might have stayed.
This post was edited by Kittigate at April 19, 2018 4:30 PM MDT
Interesting you say that. Before I started studying I was in to Kenpo, going to bars, getting in to fights and other things with that crowd. Friends at work would ask what kind of trouble I got into over the weekend and they would be amused with my antics. When I started studying with JW's, they all of a sudden wanted to save me. Didn't seem to care when I was living a life style that according to some of their Churches, would lead me to Hell.
That scripture doesn't mean to literally cut off your hand. [The “eye” spoken of by Jesus represents the power or ability to focus our attention on something, and the “hand” relates to what we do with our hands. If care is not exercised, these body parts may cause us to “stumble” and cease ‘walking with God.’ (Gen. 5:22; 6:9) When tempted to disobey Jehovah, then, we need to take strong action, figuratively tearing out an eye or cutting off a hand.]
You could have gotten as much---and probably more---fellowship at meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. God works there as well, and it is probably an environment much more pleasing to Him than your kingdom hall.
And again, you claim to know what God "really" meant when He talked about plucking out eyes and cutting off hands.
The real issue, however, is whether you are right as to the nature of God and His interaction with His creation or whether I am.
Which boils down in this thread (and all threads with you), does the Church that Christ founded know more about Him than the JW's do?
Christ has nothing to do with your Catholic Church and did not found it. If you read the Christian Greek scriptures and compare that to the Catholic Church and doctrines therein, there is very little similarity. How many Catholics cut off their hands or plucked out their eyes?
In light of your new revelation or preaching the good news found in the Bible, why not go ahead and show me your triune nature of God? I know, I know, you likely wan't respond but just make a single jab in another thread of your superior knowledge of the Bible as well as your superior intellect just to move on to another.
Funny that in many threads you condemn me for getting my doctrines from the Bible and then in one thread you claim: "I am satisfied with speaking the truth and preaching the good news found in the bible."
Funny that you claim to be "speaking the truth and preaching the good news found in the bible" yet refuse to give one scripture in support of your triune God or in opposition to God being one. Why can't you ever answer the simplest biblical questions?
Please give me the correct context of these verses so I too can see this triune God in the Bible:
(Romans 3:30) Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith. (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him. (John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God. (John 20:17) Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (Colossians 1:3) We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, (Revelation 3:12-14) “‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. 13 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’ 14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:
(Psalm 83:18) May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth. (Isaiah 42:8) I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images.
Kittigate 