but our discussion is about Islam, not about "barbarism" however defined.
Yup, no literal eternal torture in a literal hell fire for anyone:
http://answermug.com/forum/topics/hell-fire-is-there-anything-more-heinous-than-a-god-that-would
Nope, can't say I recall that being in there. Pretty sure that's why Sodom and Gomorrah got nuked, though.
Do I have to say it? :-)
At least the sodomites were incinerated outright, put out of their allegedly (in deference to the LGBT community) depraved misery and not forced to perform in 'allah's' play room:
http://www.inthenameofallah.org/Allah%20&%20his%20Hell.html
This thing they call 'allah' is about as twisted a freak as they come!
True/fair enough. You did, however, ask me where the bishop (obliquely in this case) addressed ideological Islam. I pointed you to the appropriate text.
1) No. That's the trouble with "so you" statements: they're nearly always wrong.
Case in point: I've no idea how educated the pope may be. I only know that he either ignores or feigns ignorance of important elements of the ideology he seeks to address in the text quoted above. There is no historical comparison, for instance, between the atrocities committed in the name of Christ (wholly OFF the scriptural reservation) some 400 years ago and the current wholesale slaughter of innocents in the name of Islam's twisted freak of a god. The latter, of course, being largely mandated by the Qur'an insofar as the Kafireen are concerned.
2) Study and observation. :-)
Great thread! I'm REALLY sorry I didn't get in on that one!
Thanks for going to the link. I've posted the same link to some of these fire and brimstone 'Mainstream Christians' but either they are afraid to click on the link or they know it's not really a Bible teaching. If you have anything to input or a question about anything posted, feel free to re-activate the thread.
Are you familiar with the prophecy about the timing of the Messiah? It's one of the things that made me think that there was something to the Bible:
http://answermug.com/forum/topics/are-you-familiar-with-the-prophec...
I've seen the prophecy before, but not in a while. As for the thread, I'll 'follow' it in case anything new pops up.
Suffice for now to say that I'm A) a Christian Universalist, and B) don't believe God tortures anyone--let alone for eternity. The idea that a loving God would torture, or set up the conditions whereby souls would be tortured, is absurd on its face.
Thanks, is that the same as Unitarian Universalist?
Is that the same as the Unitarian Church?
Are all three the same?
EDIT: I googled it. Is one of these sites legit about your beliefs?
http://www.christianuniversalist.org/about/beliefs/
7 We believe that God’s Holy Spirit has inspired numerous prophets, saints, philosophers, and mystics throughout history, in a variety of cultures and traditions; and that by reading the Bible and other great texts of spiritual and moral wisdom with a discerning mind, and meditating to connect to the Spirit within, we may all gain a greater understanding of truth, which should be applied for the betterment of ourselves and our world.
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/truechr.html
1 We believe the authenticity, genuineness, and inspiration, of the Holy Scriptures; that both the Old and New Testaments contain the revealed will of God and that the Bible is the only and sufficient rule of faith and practice.
say IT?
what is the IT?
If you have an issue with Islam you need to explain why [unless it's pure bigotry, because bigotry is rooted not in reason but in sheer prejudice]
the barbarism of Wahabism is a strange reason to cite for your hatred of Islam.
@Andy B -- I believe you are confusing the UK definition of "billion" (1.0 x 10^12) with the North American definition (1.0 x 10^9). Under the North American numbering system: approximately 1.5 x 10^9 Muslms in the world today.
You may now return to your baseless ad hominem attacks upon me...;-D...
1) As far as I'm concerned, the terms 'Islam' and 'barbarism' are synonymous if not fungible.
2) I dislike Islam because it was 'founded' by a pedophile (marrying a child of six and 'thighing' her till the ripe old age of nine) who dared to refer to himself as a 'prophet.' I dislike Islam because it is a religion predicated on violence, forced capitulation and sadism. I dislike Islam because it is nearly devoid of any kind of love/forgiveness. I dislike Islam because it is completely antithetical to anything I recognize as civilization. I dislike Islam because it promotes the abuse of women. I especially dislike the current brand of Islam because it sanctions if not outright promotes/demands the slaughter of innocents. I could go on all day.
3) What's strange about it? Wahhabism is Islam in its purest, most malevolent form.
ROTFLMAO!
Criticizes blind following? Are forced conversions really the same as "urging believers to contemplate, question, investigate and verify"? Does the Quran really say what you just said?
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/forced-conversion.aspx
Quran (8:38-39) - “Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven... And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” Translation from the Noble Quran
Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad narrated - hence abrogating what came before, including the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"There is no compulsion in religion...".
Quran (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. (See below). The Quran thus sanctions violence as a means of coercing religion.
Quran (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion"In conjunction with the preceding passage, this confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam. Quran (9:56-57) - "And they swear by Allah that they are most surely of you, and they are not of you, but they are a people who are afraid (of you). If they could find a refuge or cave or a place to enter into, they would certainly have turned thereto, running away in all haste." This refers to people living with the Muslim tribe who may not be true believers, but must pretend to be in order to survive. They have no safe refuge to escape the Muslims. If Islam were a religion of peace, then why the fear?
Quran (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase here is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."
Qur'an (3:83) - "Are they seeking a religion other than Allah's, when every soul in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly orby compulsion?" But didn't the earlier verse (2:256) state that there is "no compulsion in religion"? This contradiction is resolved by abrogation - where the later verse supersedes the earlier one.
of course once you fall into the lazy habit of swallowing and regurgitating stereotypes you "could go on all day" because there is no end to such mindless bigotry out there. Bigotry, like addiction, is something that requires superhuman resolve and effort to get out of. So I feel sad for you.
An open minded person would have investigated the allegations you list before making up their mind.
Let me take your first allegation that Mohammed was “a pedophile”
1- It is human nature to level all sorts of accusations against a person they hate.
2- History has recorded that when Mohammed claimed to be a prophet at age 40 almost all the people in his hometown, the city state of Mecca, turned against him. As a few people started believing in him so the level of hatred against him increased leading to people making all sorts of accusations against him.
3- Because it is clearly recorded in their scripture, the Holy Qur’an [HQ], even extremists among Muslims can’t deny that not everyone liked Mohammed and that there were those who hated him so much that they levelled all sorts of accusations against him, tried to kill him, and when thirteen years later he and his followers ran away to a neighbouring city state the Meccans launched wars against that city state.
4- Despite all that there is no record anywhere accepted by serious historians that anyone accused Mohammed of being a paedophile. Had Mohammed been seen to be a paedophile his enemies would have wasted no time in accusing him of that.
5- a paedophile is a person who has a very strong irresistible sexual attraction towards prepubescent young children preferring them to adults and seeking sexual gratification through them in secret because of social disapproval.
6- That description does not, according to any serious historical account, fit Mohammed.
7- At age 25 Mohammed was married to a widow of 40, had children with her and remained married to her till her death. Also Most of Mohammed’s other wives were similarly either widows or divorced. Hardly a sign of a paedophile.
8- The accusation of paedophilia levelled by more modern haters of Mohammed are based on his MARRIAGE to Aisha when she was, according to some reports, aged nine.
9- The facts are that
a) paedophiles are not restricted in their attraction to just one prepubescent girl
b) they do not seek marriage with prepubescent girls they are attracted to,
c) girls were married young in many cultures. As recently as 1179 prince Alexios married Agnes of France when she was aged 8 and after her husband was murdered she married married 65 year old Adronicus when she was 12. Elsewhere in Europe, children as young as 3 were sometimes married as recorded in the Decretum Gratiani.
d) there is no one-age-fits-all marker for the onset of puberty. In 1933 the Peruvian Lina Medina gave birth to her first baby when she herself was only 5 years and 8 months old.
you've done a copy and paste from an anti Islam website and you seriously expect me to do a refutation of that site here.
Raise a single point that genuinely bothers you and let's examine it together sincerely and with an open mind. That would be far more interesting.
1) Why not? Is the information s/he provided inaccurate...or is the real problem that you cannot refute the truth? That the truth about Islam is so ugly that not even its apologists can give it the scrutiny it deserves?
2) OK, let's start with Mohammad's (pedophilia be upon him) taste for prepubescent females. (Hint: the "s/he or they did it, too, defense doesn't cut it here. That others are guilty of pedophilia doesn't excuse Mohammad's perversion.) Then we can address 'allah's' sadism--you know, that whole 'giving unbelievers new skins so he (it) can torture them again' thing?. Then we can address the general Islamic bloodlust in the desire to sate its freakish idea of 'god.' Yes. By all means let's examine these issues with an 'open mind.' :-) I can't wait to see how you defend that which is so CLEARLY indefensible.
Edit: we'll have to continue our examination from above in this thread. Responses/threads only go eight levels deep.
erm... Nimitz, my response to your post begins with the words "of course once you fall into...." and appears immediately underneath your post beginning with "1) As far as I'm concerned..."
My post which you've just tried to respond to is actually addressed to Tex not you because it is in response to what he posted for my attention.
Erm... I explained this anomaly with that portion of my response above beginning with the word 'Edit.' Threads on AM don't go deeper than eight levels (responses).
And just in case you weren't informed this is a PUBLIC forum, which means that anyone can interject at any time.
Oh, and don't think I noticed you avoided addressing any of my concerns about Islam. (I actually don't blame you.)
All of those verses relate to your previous post hence my questions:
[Criticizes blind following? Are forced conversions really the same as "urging believers to contemplate, question, investigate and verify"? Does the Quran really say what you just said?]
Ignore the commentary and address the verses in light of your comment:
[My pov sees the Holy Qur'an [HQ] as a book that criticises blind following, urging believers to contemplate, question, investigate and verify.]
Nimitz, no diversionary tactics please. First read my detailed response to your allegation about paedophilia, and we'll continue from there - if you wish.
One example of criticism of blind following of parents and also not using reason to evaluate religious beliefs appears in HQ 2:170 It says that when presented with good arguments for living by the will of the creator of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed:
"some answer, "Nay, we shall follow [only] that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing." Why, even if their forefathers did not use their reason at all, and were devoid of all guidance?"
Scripture sanctioned violence
Well, let's see how reliable the knowledge you've gained through your "Study and observation." really is. Which scripture does the verse below come from, the Holy Bible [HB] or the Holy Qur'an [HQ]?
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
[Answer: HB Numbers 31:17-18]
