.
Thank you, that's kind of you to say so.
I'm actually an atheist, but one who believes that Westerners need to understand Islam and all the different expressions of the ways it is lived and practiced so that we can have acceptance and live in peace together.
I'm not sure I could make a good Muslim - it seems to be quite a difficult thing to live a whole life in complete submission to Allah, the Five Pillars, the Koran and the Hadith. If I were Muslim, I would probably choose to be Sufi, because I love the poetry of Hafiz, Rumi, and Gibran, and the writings of Idries Shah - especially his book, "Learning How to Learn."
و عليكم السلام والرحمة الله وبركاته.
hartfire
with that sort of clear analytical non biased thinking I knew the dividing barrier between you and classical Islamic thinking was very thin. Your latest post tells me it's even thinner. You might even be there already but are just kidding yourself that you're not.
You say "It seems to be quite a difficult thing to live a whole life in complete submission to Allah," but EVERY part of our body does so. Every part of every thing has no option but to follows the laws given to it by none other than the maker of all the laws of "nature".But because we have free will we find it difficult.
Sufism is the deeply spiritual dimension. If the five pillars are like our outer bodies spirituality is the inner heart which with its hidden non-stop continuous dynamism feeds every cell of the body. Without it the body dies, decays and becomes useless. Sufism/spirituality provides a continuous awareness of, and connection with, the infinite.
Do you know of Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, Imam Zaid Shakir or Skeikh Abdel Hakim Murad [aka Dr Timothy Winters] to name but a few?
It is very easy to hold on to our perceptions as being absolutely correct. However, as humans we can perceive things only within the limits set for us by the creator. Our perception could be an illusion or it could be a slice of the actual reality out there.
In the short video clip at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fytFwCBSEEc&feature=grec_index Ustadh Yahya Rhodus giving an intro on Why Religion Still Matters mentions a couple of du’as which I think are quite pertinent here:
and اللهم ارنا الحق حقاً وارزقنا اتباعه وارنا الباطل باطلا وارزقنا اجتنابه
اللهم ارنا الاشياء كما هي
“O God! show us [enable us to see] the truth as true, and feed us adherence [to it] and show us [enable us to see] falsehood as falsehood, and feed us abstinence [from it] and
“O God show us [enable us to see] things as they really are.”
That wouldn't be politically correct. I suppose the men are a bit happier than the women?
"they don't expect marriage to be all romance and stars", the man force sex when the women don't feel like it, according to their holy book anyway:
1- Any reasonable minded person will agree that just like the vast majority of people don’t get involved in street fights similarly the vast majority of people don’t get involved in domestic violence.
2- However, the human condition is such that domestic violence is a reality amongst people of all religions including JWs and Muslims.
3- In Islam we have HQ 30:21 which says, “And of His (God's) signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves (so that you can relate to them easily and) so that ye might find peace, rest and tranquillity in them, and He ordained between you deep love and mercy (for each other). Lo, herein indeed are signs for people who reflect.” A couple who take that verse to heart and lives by it is very unlikely to turn to domestic violence, which is quite predominantly committed by men against women (though men can also sometimes be the victims)
4- The reality is that you will get macho men who by their temperaments are more likely to resort to violence. Here HQ 4:34 first appeals to the macho mentality by reminding men that they have the responsibility to provide for, care for and protect women because God has blessed men with those favours over women, while women have been blessed in their own way over men. It also uses the fact that most violence results from anger that has boiled over and that a simple "it's not allowed" is bound to be ignored.
5- The HQ is a book of wisdom so it says to the macho man, if you feel her affront or provocation has exceeded your limit you strike her BUT first explain to her why you think what she has done is wrong. If that doesn’t work then stage two is to boycott sexual intercourse with her. In most cases anger and the urge to hit out will have died out by this stage.
6- Where this doesn't work and violence keeps resurfacing then the woman is likely to be in an abusive relationship and must seek resolution of the problem or dissolution of the marriage.
7- The fact that out of every four people who embrace Islam in the West three are women, mostly well educated ones, bears witness to the fact that Islam gives great honour to women. The woman in the video below is a judge and she investigated domestic violence against Muslim women yet she became a Muslim following her study of Islam, which must have been littered with probing questions considering that she was a judge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnsIeh_s05g&feature=related
Thank you for bringing reason and fact into an area where prejudice and fear is further exacerbated by ignorance and lack of understanding.
In the West and many other places, Islam is a free choice, so women who choose Islam choose also to abide by its precepts, which includes choosing to obey.
Many people are unaware that it is possible for a woman to seek a divorce within the tenets of Islam and, albeit with difficulty and much loss (her children,) be granted one.
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1- Marriage, like life in general, has its many ups and downs.
2- For this and other reasons I think it is meaningless to put a figure on the percentage of Muslim or any other women worldwide who are happily married.
3- Islam provides a framework for happy marriages but like most good things one has to put a lot of effort and sacrifices into it. It doesn't come on a plate.
4- HQ 30:21 is one of several verses on marriage. It says, “And of His (God's) signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves (so that they may have the same nature as you so that you can relate to them easily and) in order that ye might find peace, rest and tranquillity in them, and He ordained between you deep love and mercy (for each other). Lo, herein indeed are signs for people who reflect.”
5- HQ 2:187 advises wives and husbands to be like clothing to each other. Just like clothes protect a person from the weather and the environment, cover blemishes, give dignity, identity, and beauty, so should the husband/wife try to do the same for his/her spouse..
6- Islam’s rules regarding marriage are relaxed enough to allow women free movement from one marriage to another or nine if she so prefers, ensuring that a woman does not end up being trapped in an abusive or unhappy relationship thinking that marriages are made in heaven “Therefore let no one split apart what God has joined together." (Matthew 19:6)
7- The fact that out of every four people who embrace Islam in the West three are women, mostly well educated ones, bears witness to the fact that Islam gives great honour to women. The woman in the video below is a judge and she investigated domestic violence against Muslim women yet she became a Muslim following her study of Islam, which must have been littered with probing questions considering that she is a judge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnsIeh_s05g&feature=related
HF
Yes, indeed. Islam protects the woman from burden. Before her marriage her upkeep is the responsibility of the male members of her family. In marriage it is her husband's responsibility to provide for her upkeep, for the household and for the children, if any. If the wife chooses to work or run a business, her income and wealth are solely hers. She is not obliged to spend on the household, not even the children and even her own upkeep continues to be the responsibility of her husband. If, she chooses to spend on what is her husband's responsibilities it is seen as an act of kindness and carries the reward of a noble charity. Even if a marriage breaks down the protection of the woman from burden continues. The children remain the responsibility of the father to provide for and responsibility for the upkeep of the woman reverts to the male members of her family.
btw did we finish our last conversation?
We did not complete it.
I've been following up those references you gave me.
I agree.
For several reasons.
True religious beliefs of Muslims don't come from the Quran?
@tex
I understand that you have a personal mission for Jesus, which i see as your right, especially as I have thorough first hand experience of listening to the way JW's bare witness and I know they/you use only persuasion and not force,
but I feel uncomfortable about the way you selectively present the quote from the Koran because I believe it is not helpful to peaceful relationships between Muslims and others.
Firstly, the Koran is not the only reference for Muslims. The Hadith also plays a strong roll, guiding the interpretation of the Koran, and filling in gaps on issues not mentioned.
The Koran has many passages which are mutually contradictory, and many which (in Arabic) are ambiguous. The general view of most Muslim scholars is that all possible meanings are correct and were intended by God/Allah, and that all the contradictions were also intentional.
However, there are sub-sects within Islam who reject all aspects of violence, including beating of women or children and jihad. One of these is Sufism.
The Koran says that education and knowledge are a blessing, and says nothing against it. This allows ample room for Islam to incorporate science, logic, hisory and almost any other topic within the scope of Islamic education. It allows for a modern evolution of the faith.
If we in the West practice open-mindedness and peace towards Muslims living among us, it allows for that natural process to evolve.
It is up to each person in Islam to pray to see reality as it really is and for understanding. While Islam has some facets to it that are simple and easy, such as the 5 pillars, it has many other aspects which are extremely complex and cannot be taken for granted or simplified.
I would ask you, in the interests of open-mindedness and peace between us all, to please consider what CLURT has replied.
JA 
you're post beginning "I don't know any Muslims who....."
it HF 
Point 6 above should read- Islam’s rules regarding marriage are relaxed enough to allow women free movement from one marriage to another or NONE if she so prefers, ensuring that a woman does not end up being trapped in an abusive or unhappy relationship thinking that marriages are made in heaven “Therefore let no one split apart what God has joined together." (Matthew 19:6)
That's called "cherry picking" - ie, selecting which ever example suits your view - rather than looking for the answer to the question by taking the broadest cross section of research available, as JA has done.
So for the sake of balance, I will cherry pick in the opposite direction - it is not appropriate for this main board so I give the reference for those who are interested.
https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-marriage-syed-athar-husain-sh-rizvi/sexual-techniques
