Do Supporters of the Right to Self Defense Owe Obama a Debt Of Gratitude?

We Aussies have much tighter restrictions on guns, and a much lower proportion of homicides and mass homicides.

What I find most odd is the idea that a gun is considered a defense. I can see two ways it can be defensive - loaded and safety off, point it at the threat and say "I'll shoot unless you leave me and mine unharmed and in peace." It might work, if the threat is not better armed, prepared and skilled. And if you have an accurate aim. And if you have the gun with you and ready at all times so you can never be taken by surprise. It seems at best an uncertain defense.

What I think would work better if someone really thinks the world is a threat, is to build a house that ballistics can't penetrate, have vault-like automatic locks, have bullet proof car, vest and helmet, or make preventative choices about places of residence, work, study and play.

Probably owning a gun is cheaper than all those precautions - but heck, if you really believe some intruder or madman is likely to come after you or the ones you love, or your neighbors and workmates, why not create a new life in a safer part of the world?

Then you might say, not everyone is free to move. OK, some moves take time and are a big hassle to organise, but in a place like the USA it seems to me unlikely that it would be impossible.

If you really do have fear of other people with guns, I don't see how owning a gun is any serious self-protection at all. I think it's a delusion of security.

Precisely!  I'm quite sure this is one debt which Obama would not readily wish to accept. :-)

Hey, wait a minute.  Maybe he's ever-so-slyly trying to warn the American people about the globalist agenda of mass disarmament and is subtly instructing us to get prepared......nah!  Who am I kidding. :-)

Back in my more liberal days I would at least have appreciated your logic if not have agreed with your every word, but since then I've come to understand that the real threat to our safety/liberty doesn't come from the random nutter, criminal or terrorist.   The federal government taught me that lesson on the morning of April 19, 1993.  Google it.

In any case, for me, the right to self defense (by whatever means may be used against me) is a HUMAN one. It "just so happens" that this particular right is guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.

I googled it.

I don't know how much the wiki article leaves out / how much is still held secret by the authorities.

If the story as presented is true, it indicates that authorities began obvious surveillance months before the crisis came, based on reports of shots heard, possible arms hoarding and illegal treatment of children. Also that Koresh knew who the infiltrator was and chose not to reveal it till much later.

What would you have done in this situation if you were in a position of power like Koresh's (which I somehow doubt you would ever accept)?

And what would you have done if you were the head of the government surveillance force (which I assume is a role you would also refuse in normal life) ?

What would have been the best options for defense to prevent the siege, murders, slaughter, and fire that occurred?

1)   I'm one of the unfortunate few who had a chance to see the original, unedited FLIR footage taken of the raid on the Branch Davidian compound.  The footage clearly shows forces of the federal government injecting napalm or its equivalent into the building, thereby incinerating eighty-three men, women and children (most of the latter two groups we can safely assume never engaged the government in belligerent activities).  The footage also shows 'tanks (APC's and MRAP's)' driving over people as they tried to escape the inferno.  Sufficient to know that the Wikipedia entry does NOT include all the facts surrounding what is now known as the Waco Massacre.

2) I'm not the cult leading kind, so I can only hazard a guess as to how I would have reacted. Since the original purpose of the raid was to serve a weapons warrant against Koresh and a few other 'church' elders, I'm pretty sure I would have surrendered myself rather than see my congregation perish.

3) Inasmuch as I would take my oath to protect/defend and abide by the Constitution literally, I'm also not the kind who would/could ever take a job in law enforcement.  Mine would be the shortest career in the history of any such agency. :-)  ASSUMING I were ever in such a hypothetical situation, however, I would have simply waited them out. From a tactical (short-term) or strategic (long-term) perspective, trying to defend against a siege by a superior force is doomed from the start.  Once you've 'hunkered down' or have 'holed up,' you've already lost.  The BATFE and FBI would have known this, but decided to force the Davidians into a lethal confrontation.

4)  Answering that question would necessitate discussion of strategies I don't wish to divulge. :-)  If you're truly interested, though, there are several good treatises on the 'art' of warfare which cover the topic at great length.

Thank the NRA's fear mongering for increased gun sales, not the Obama administration. Obama was responsible for bringing Ebola to the USA as punishment for slavery...Remember ?   What about the other 5%  that disappeared from the survey ?   You  need to get your shit straight !

"One toke over the line, Sweet Jesus".....Wackos in Waco !

It wasn't the aptly described Waco Whackos who turned me from moderate liberal to anarcho-libertarian almost overnight. It was the government.

...Oh, and last I checked, being a whacko wasn't punishable by death...let alone the death of children.  Would you consider this, your response, a typical example of liberal compassion/tolerance?

WHO needs to get their shit straight?  The author(s) of the article?

"Facts?!  We don't NEED no stinkin' facts!"

Now, play like a good slave and turn in all your "automatic" weapons to the government.

LOL!

Edit: and what in the semi-incandescent hell is a "cuckservative."  Gawd, do liberals turn out neologisms faster than they change their drawers?

Generally not if they're kept cool/dry.  I've reliably fired ammunition over 20 years old.

I am both appalled, and believe what you say.

I did see news footage many years ago, and my mind still carries a flash of memory - consistent with the look of napalm in Vietnam footage.

It's horrific to contemplate A government like the USA's doing such a thing - and yet I believe there would hardly be a government in the world which hasn't committed such atrocities at various times. It seems to be a tendency for those with too much power.

I was an ardent pacifist when young, and still believe there are many ways of creating and maintaining peace which are not used nearly enough.

But watching the current direction of ISIS scares me, along with some of the other horrors around the world. I might look up some of those treatises on the arts of warfare - because I suspect that a time may come when knowledge of them might become a necessity. I would hope that I'd be far away from it all - but who's to know?

Thanks for your extremely interesting answer, Nimitz.

Hello N:

I support the right to defend myself.   But, you're suggesting that my right to defend myself is enhanced because more people have guns.   I fundamentally disagree with your proposition..

excon

Not only your right to, but perhaps your ability to as well.

He's slick, not that slick ;)

It's easily converted

You and I know they can be fully converted.  Tell me why you need such a weapon

So..the fact that Aussies have a much lower proportion of homicides and mass homicides because they have strict gun control isn't proof enough?

So what about the other 5%?  

But yes anytime a Dem gets in gun sales increase, because they always talk about banning guns and gun control.  But yes, Obama has sold more guns than any other sells person in the country. 

Why is it that anyone/everyone who disagrees with leftists MUST be "poorly educated" bumpkins?

Here's a better question. Why is it that anyone who disagrees with someone who feels the right is wrong isautomatically paints all leftists as people who believe that the right is poorly educated annd bumpkins?

Isn't that a pejorative labels in itself?

I think y'all are being spoon fed proaganda as well as are the left who is also being fed the pablum of so-called left. 

You keep saying that there is an effort to disarm people.  Exactly what are those efforts? I asked you once and you didn't answer...Is it the efforts to keep guns out of the hands of terrorists, criminals and the mentally disturbed?

Yeah that's right. Blame Obama for your nonsense.

Please tell us how " self defense" is a Constitutional right ?  Self defense is a legal concept, Sparky !  Self defense can be done with or without a weapon, especially a firearm.  Self defense is in no way, shape or form protected by the Second Amendment.   Stay away from gun shops and pool rooms     And "NO". there are no FEMA camps !

Yesterday...I ran out of Toilet paper and I have nobody to blame but Obama