A survivor of a recent tragedy claims someone (implying God) was looking out for him. Does that mean those who died didn't?

I used to think there was something similar. Perhaps not "God," but some kind of consciousness or awareness that joined people. I've had similar experiences too. But, there is a scientific explanation for it. It's our subconscious picking up cues. https://www.livescience.com/54825-scientists-measure-intuition.html 

That said, I like the way you approached this. It's a little more tangible than operating on belief alone and, as far as I know, science can't wholly refute your claim either. Food for thought. 

How can anything be seen by the person who dies in an accident? That person is dead.

The question isn't regarding the attitude of the man that died in the accident, it is regarding the one that didn't. The question asked why the one that did survive state that God saved him.

This post was edited by kjames at May 10, 2019 4:18 AM MDT

"this can be seen by...another (person) who may die in a minor one."

You still haven't answered the question of how anything can be seen by anyone who dies in an accident. Either that or you did a poor job constructing the statement and didn't say what you meant.

I'm speaking from our perspective Stu, "All our days are numbered, this can be seen by (the scenario of) one person that may survive a major accident and another who may die in a minor one. I hope that clarity helps clear things up.

Every word of your post is based on a grand presumption: God is.
Presumption that serves a high functioning confirmation bias: God is great/merciful/omniscient/eternal/infallible/etc.

As Shakespeare said, “Satan could quote scripture for his purpose“. This post was edited by Don Barzini at May 9, 2019 8:28 PM MDT

The question was regards to a person who believes in God.  My answer is in reference as to why he would respond that way as a person who was an atheist for many years, but am not now.  As an atheist I was fully aware that we would all walk through the valley of the shadow of death, we will all die, some will die in a minor accident and some will escape death in a major one.   What would be the purpose of me answering from an atheist perspective? Would that answer the question that Just Asking was referring to from a believers perspective? 

And yes I do believe God exists, from purely an experience not from anything I can give to you or really put into any adequate words, it wasn't a grand presumption for me, it was the most humbling experience I've had, and the most beautiful. It is something you'd have to experience for yourself.

The bible gives you teachings, the New Testament teachings are regarding the inner self, the battle within, but you cannot take outside actions and put them inside you, all people can do is practice them in the hope that it will make them a better person, but the real transformation, as in anything comes from within, the mystics knew that an unknown world exists outside the boundaries of sense, hence the evidence cannot be given to you by the means in which you demand it. The Spirit of man, entangled amidst material things, for which God is behind. 

Mystics are the explorers of the spiritual world, with no right to deny validity to their discoveries, merely because others lack the opportunity or courage necessary. Purification here is the gate of knowledge, come with minds cleared of prejudice and convention, and taking the visible world for granted, under the assumption that science is real and metaphysics is not.

This post was edited by kjames at May 10, 2019 4:51 AM MDT

I don’t see JA’s question as limiting responses from only a believer’s perspective. As such, my own reply was wholly secular and remained relevant. 

I cannot speak to whatever processes that rendered your unique experiences to a set-aside of critical faculties, but the attachment of Bible “teachings” to them, seemingly after the fact since you claimed to have been atheist prior, rings of the confirmation bias I described.

In other words, the lack of another explanation for these feelings raised a default mindset of “God did it”. Perhaps even because, somewhere deep down, you really want this to be so. But whatever the case, this ideology now works for you. 

If you were any kind of atheist, you’d have realized how many flawed, frequently contradictory and improbable claims reside in the Bible, requiring the repeated calls to abandon intellect and reason in favor of “just believing” out of hand, regardless of the obvious fallacies inherent in doing so. Sorry, this is something I as an educated, well-read, independent thinker personally cannot abide.  
Given the hard reality that is available to our examination every day, against the absence of any corroboration for God in the 40+ years I have been looking for it, these tendencies toward the metaphysical are pallid assertions at best.   


This post was edited by Don Barzini at May 10, 2019 8:26 AM MDT

I didn't try to limit your response, from what I can see you replied to the question from an atheist perspective without question from me.  You questioned my reply, and I respectfully responded to that.

I was an atheist, and I am sure as an atheist you have read Darwin and Dawkins, and also scripture just like I did. Biblical scripture was not the only thing I quoted in my reply.

I didn’t lose my critical faculties, it wasn’t confirmation bias, and it was unexpected.

As such, I came to understand why the Mystic, the Saint, often escape the material world for solace, they want to stay in the eternal, that which exists beyond the self, but they are verbally criticised by those people who do not understand; people attack that which they do not know, because for those people, the world what they see; is for them the only truth. When the world is limited to senses, the world lapses into a calculating machine, each man is trapped in his perception of the world, what you describe as hard reality.

As an atheist, I had spent many years debating Christians, thinking they were brainwashed and that I would be freeing them from their mind-set, like I had first felt free when I became an atheist, I thought I was helping them to see the truth.  I then practiced awareness for many years, not only because it was a helpful tool, but because I felt it bias of me to scrutinise religious belief, without examining such things as scientific ideas, or my own thoughts.  I wasn't looking for God, I was looking for truth.

So as I have said, I no longer read the bible like you, like I did as an atheist when I ridiculed it for the flawed, frequent and contradictory improbable claims that were an insult to my logical and reasoning mind. I now realise the truth of the mystery is there. As an atheist I too believed I was an independent thinker. Most mystic writings are a finger pointing to the truth, they write this way for fear that descriptions will prevent you from experiencing it, and not because they are deceptive or nuts.

Throughout history we meet persons in the east and the west; in the ancient, mediaeval, and modern worlds, their one passion appears to be the prosecution of a certain spiritual and intangible quest: the finding of a “way out” or a “way back” to some desirable state in which alone they can satisfy their craving for absolute truth. Their experience, therefore, forms a body of evidence, curiously self-consistent and often mutually explanatory, which must be taken into account, yet is overlooked. But if we may trust the reports of the mystics — and they are reports given with a strange accent of certainty and good faith — they have succeeded where all these others have failed, in establishing immediate communication between the spirit of man, entangled as they declare amongst material things, and that “only Reality,” that immaterial and final Being, which some philosophers call the Absolute, and most theologians call God.

KJ:
First, allow me to be appreciative of the thought you put into your response.  That said, I found it curious you thought to include quoting scripture to me, since you probably know: a) I‘m familiar with it, and b) proselytizing carries no weight with me.  

You say each man is trapped in his perceptions of the world, which may be true for some, but given the example of the two of us evolving our perceptions by way of gaining insight, it can be argued we can consciously determine what the basis of our perceptions are.

In addition to being a proponent of reason, I’m a voracious student of history, KJ, and the historical record assures me of the derivative ignorance that pervades man’s God-beliefs, and the faulty, often backward and even wicked pretenses they are built upon. 
There is literally nothing mystical about the attributing of conditions and events not fully understood (or verified) by those lacking the tools, to intangible entities even less understood. It creates an illusion of authority, while peddling credulity. 
The Bible is (as are the Quran, the Vedas, & the Talmud) clearly a work of, for, and by men, strewn with errors, intolerance and spurious claims, and is left ripe for interpretation, in fact demands it, and given the varying contexts from which all interpretations arise, it all but assures everyone is mistaken about some part of it. That then provides for clergy (mystics, what have you) to shape the narrative, ... as often to their own benefit as not. 

I respect that you have found your path, KJ, but for me, it lacks the substance necessary to stake my world view on.  

Sorry for the delay in response, I've been in the garden in this nice weather trying to sort things out, I've attempted to come on a few times but my connection keeps cutting off.

I wasn't proselytizing, that wasn't my intent, and all the scripture I took from the bible contained the word "mystery," to demonstrate that the bible is meant to reveal a puzzle.  I'm gathering as an atheist you have read scripture literally as I did, it also might be worth bearing in mind that the Torah is written in Hebrew and so each letter not only has its own number, but its own meaning, hence a Rabbi could read something very different to us (unless you know Hebrew of course).  In religion there has always been the esoteric and the exoteric i.e. ritual etc.

Perceptions are biased by many things not just by the individual genetics and experience, but bearing in mind that other species also experience this world very different to us, they are set up very differently, and who's to say what reality is right? As such our perception of reality will always be very limited. Also, quantum physics always reduces to math, which exists in the human mind and so again we are back to the self; still it isn't without its importance, but quantum physics points to a world unseen by our five senses.  You then have the conscious and subconscious which is still not understood. 

Throughout history there has always been two schools of thought, one is the examination of the natural/material universe, the other is the examination of the inner world of man.  These two schools have never disappeared, the Psyche was classed as the soul in ancient Egypt, then the soul was completely disregarded, however many psychologists now suggest mindfulness to their patients, which was always a mystic technique to lead to the No Mind of the Buddha, just as yoga means to yoke or achieve union with.  Jesus Christ teaches that the Kingdom of God does not live in temples made by man's hands, that God isn't out there separate from man.   

I agree religion has come with a lot of bloodshed, exoteric religion teaches an afterlife, but that has never been the motive which has always been about conquering a peoples and their land. There has always been a select group of people, Kings, Priests, elites that use it as a tool to increase kingdoms and gain land, gain more power, control, oil, and precious stones and metals, it is this that has caused the bloodshed (nothing much has changed even without religion).  Egypt never died it morphed into Rome, and Rome never died it morphed into the West which is why we still have Roman gods, Minerva/Athena is on the US Capitol Building, and Poseidon on the fountain of the US congress, the Egyptian obelisk (phallus) in the Washington monument with the reflection of the "As above so below," in the water, surrounded by the Vesica Piscis. They believe in sacred geometry, and of course duality as seen on the black and white checkerboard.

This can also be seen in St Peters Square. This union of opposites is also seen on the flag of Israel, with the two adjoining triangles making the Star of David, it was the Menorah that use to be the Jewish symbol, and can be seen in the caduceus and the Baphomet.  The US has the Apotheosis of Washington in the Rotunda, many Pharaohs were also considered gods, and you also have Fasces in the US state senate.  Every one of the US presidents have been a freemason (even if only while in office). Atheists are not allowed to be Freemasons. They follow the Kabbalah.

There have been secret rites throughout history, JFK spoke out about secrets being repugnant in a free society and shortly after was assassinated. Nietzsche thought to be an honest nihilist atheist when crazy and thought he was the god Dionysus towards the end of his life, and this may highlight a membership to the Dionysus cult, many influential figures throughout history have been members of mystery schools and the occult.

Charles Darwin's father Erasmus Darwin was a 33 degree freemason, and he was the one who came up with the idea of evolution, it was Charles that then took on his grandfather’s idea and elaborated it, (now I am not saying that evolution isn't true), I am merely interested in the source of information and motive.  Darwin wrote Origin of the Species by Natural Selection for the Favoured Races, this is why the book states that a black man is closest to the gorilla, and the Irish man is a pest and breeds like a rabbit, (two races who have been victims of slavery). Darwin wasn't just obsessed about evolution as we know it today, he wanted super intelligence as a race, this is why he intermarried with other members of the X-club who were all obsessed with super races of intelligence, and eugenics.  However, unknown to Darwin to get healthy offspring one needs to spread the genes about a bit and this is why some of his children turned out to be...trying to find the politically correct word "mentally challenged." He hopes rested in the fact that war, poverty and disease would kill off the undesirables of the population.

It was Thomas Huxley (Darwin’s Bulldog, and Royal Society member) who pushed the idea of evolution, interestingly he is the grandfather of Aldous Huxley who wrote many influential books including A Brave New World, a story about a world which would live under a frightful dictatorship, with impersonals forces pushing in the direction of less and less freedom these forces are over population and technology.  Huxley outlines what this governmental system would look like having four or five different types of population the alphas the betas, etc. His brother Julian Huxley was an evolutionary biologist, eugenicist, and internationalist, and a proponent of natural selection and a leading figure in the midst twentieth century. He was secretary of the Zoological society of London, first director of UNESCO, and founding member of the World Wildlife fund, and has been awarded many medals including the Darwin Medal from the Royal Society, (a society that was made up of many members who were freemasons and Rosicrucian's and heavily into eugenics) and received a knighthood. In 1959 he received a special award of the Alaska foundation in the category of the Planned Parenthood World Population. He was a member of the Eugenics society and it’s President from 1959 – 1962. As a side note Margaret Sanger was the founder of American Birth Control League which became Planned parenthood and her thoughts were as quoted from The Pivot of Civilisation "Every single case of inherited defect, every malformed child, every congenitally tainted human being brought into this world is of infinite importance to that poor individual; but it is of scarcely less importance to the rest of us and to all of our children who must pay in one way or another for these biological and racial mistakes." She also wrote a public papers which she called My Way to Peace, in which she also suggested a Population Congress. She was friend to H.G wells who shared her thoughts "The way of nature has always been to slay the hindmost, and there is still no other way, unless we can prevent those who would become the hindmost being born. It is in the sterilization of failures, and not in the selection of successes for breeding, that the possibility of an improvement of the human stock lies."

Julian Huxley wrote many books Democracy Marches, Eugenics, Evolution the Modern Synthesis, Evolution by Action, Evolutionary Humanism, King Solomon’s Ring, Man Stands Alone, On living in a Revolution, Religion Without Revelation, etc. that all tied into the eugenics theme that he and Aldous were putting forth. Aldous was also funding the Easalen institute through Dick Price and Michael Murphy’s he was one of the key funders and founders of the Institute, a retreat based on humanistic alternative education, which played a key role in the Human Potential Movement. It also promoted the practice and beliefs of the New Age Movement, made up from eastern religions and philosophy, including ecology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esalen_Institute

Dick Price and Murphy’s met each other at the AAIS American Academy of Asian Studies for which later became known as the ICCS California Institute of Integral Studies, Alan Watts said that "The American Academy of Asian Studies was one of the principal roots of what later came to be known, in the early sixties, as the San Francisco Renaissance.” Collaborators in the propagation of Soyen Shaku (a Buddhist zen master) for D.T Susuki (an author of Buddhist zen) were Paul Carus, Edward Hegeler, Martin Heidegger, Frederic Spiegelberg, (former president of the CIIS Father Thomas Merton, Alan Watts, Eric Fromm, Carl G. Jung, Richard de Martino, Karen Horney, and a grant from the Rockefeller Foundation to lecture extensively at Columbia University and
other East Coast schools in the 1950's. Those strongly affected by the Shaku-Suzuki Zen Influence: Aldous Huxley, Karl Jaspers, Arnold Toynbee, Gabriel Marcel, Herbert
Read, and Lynn White Jr.

This is why today we see eastern philosophy and religion entering into the West in the form of meditation and yoga classes, Buddhist statues, alternative medicine, massage etc.

And of course Aldous was writing books about a society which would give up its autonomy for the greater good. No surprise that George Orwell who wrote 1984 regarding the Big Brother Society was in fact the student of Aldous Huxley. Of course we have had the leaks of Edward Snowden, which resulted in the CIA making it legal to collect private data and spy on the public.

You also have the influence of figures like Madam Blavatsky who also believed in a superior race, and was into Eastern mysticism, Alice Bailey (married to 33^rd degree freemason) who started the Lucifer Trust, which became the Lucis Trust, which is funded by the United Nations, and fellow A.A member also a 33^rd degree freemason Aleister/Edward Crowley who was also a CIA agent, and occultist of theosophy and kabbalah, who influenced the likes of David Bowie, The Eagles, The Beatles, right up until today with Jay Z, Madonna etc.

And so even if you believe you are a free thinker, the odds are you have been moulded by the agenda of the elite’s evolution of mankind at some point along the way, you cannot escape it as you have to swallow what you are told, unless of course you can discover these things for yourself. They are the self-appointed gods of today, only answerable to themselves with the same concerns of population growth and the quality of mankind, and of course with a humanist eugenic mind-set, using the upmost rationality and logical to scientifically eliminate the undesirables in society. Ironically, also creating poverty, creating pollution, and overconsumption and marketing through Madison Avenue.

 

It is less vanity than the sudden clarity that we creatures may actually have a real responsibility to be, to become, or to do something.