Christians disagree with Jesus apparently. What an oddly bizarre thing to realize. Isn't it?

I'm not sure, so could you please clarify

1- how your latest post relates to my last post, and

2- what in your latest post are your comments and questions and what are quotes from others. They seem all jumbled up.

Thanks

My response was to what I thought was a round about way of you saying no to my previous comment:
"Don't Muslims believe that Muhammad was somehow special because of his relationship with Moses and Ishmael and Ishmael was special due to his relationship with Abraham?"

But as I see your answer didn't really answer my previous question but rather showed how Muhammad wanted everyone to view him as every bit as good as and equal to Moses and all previous prophets. I was kinda expecting you to say that Muhammad was the prophet from the brothers of Moses but I guess you were trying to avoid that in this thread.

Okay, let me see if this is what you might be getting at.

Ishmael: It is generally accepted that Mohammed's ancestry can be traced back to Ishmael, Abraham's first son. So yes, there is a special relationship between the two there.

Moses: Jesus and Moses are the central characters of Christianity and Judaism, the two sister religions of Islam. However, Mohammed is a closer parallel to Moses than to Jesus, in many ways. They both had two human parents, were conceived like all other men, in addition to being spiritual leaders they became temporal leaders of their followers too, they died normal deaths and were buried with no claims of resurrection. There are more, but these are just a few ways in which Mohammed was less like Jesus and more like Moses. So it's NOT a special relationship like that with Ishmael but a comparison of their life histories, really.

Is that what you were getting at? If so I hope I have clarified the matter.


This post was edited by CLURT at August 16, 2017 9:53 AM MDT

Moses being a descendant of Israel would be considered to be a brother to other descendants of Israel. Other prophets gave more details as to the lineage of said prophet. Until the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70CE, all the Jews could prove from what line of descent they had come from.

(Deuteronomy 18:15) Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him.
(Genesis 49:10) The scepter will not depart from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shiʹloh comes, and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.
(Numbers 24:17) I will see him, but not now; I will behold him, but not soon. A star will come out of Jacob, And a scepter will rise out of Israel. And he will certainly break apart the forehead of Moʹab And the skull of all the sons of tumult.
(1 Kings 8:25) And now, O Jehovah the God of Israel, keep the promise you made to your servant David my father when you said: ‘There will never fail to be a man of your line before me to sit on the throne of Israel, if only your sons will pay attention to their way by walking before me, just as you have walked before me.’
(Psalm 89:3, 4) “I have made a covenant with my chosen one; I have sworn to David my servant:  4 ‘I will firmly establish your offspring forever, And I will build up your throne for all generations.’” (Selah)
(Psalm 89:20) I have found David my servant; With my holy oil I have anointed him.
(Psalm 89:36) His offspring will endure forever; His throne will endure like the sun before me.
(Psalm 132:11, 12) Jehovah has sworn to David; He will surely not go back on his word: “One of your offspring, I will place on your throne. 12 If your sons keep my covenant And my reminders that I teach them, Their sons too Will sit on your throne forever.”
(Isaiah 11:1) A twig will grow out of the stump of Jesʹse, And a sprout from his roots will bear fruit.
(Isaiah 11:10) In that day the root of Jesʹse will stand up as a signal for the peoples. To him the nations will turn for guidance, And his resting-place will become glorious.
(Isaiah 9:7) To the increase of his rulership And to peace, there will be no end, On the throne of David and on his kingdom In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it Through justice and righteousness, From now on and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.
(Jeremiah 33:20, 21) “This is what Jehovah says, ‘If you could break my covenant regarding the day and my covenant regarding the night, to prevent day and night from coming at their proper time, 21 only then could my covenant with my servant David be broken, so that he should not have a son ruling as king on his throne, and so also my covenant with the Levitical priests, my ministers.
(Matthew 9:27) As Jesus moved on from there, two blind men followed him, shouting out: “Have mercy on us, Son of David.”
(Luke 1:69) And he has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David his servant,
(Acts 2:30, 31) Because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one of his offspring on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption.
(Acts 13:22, 23) After removing him, he raised up for them David as king, about whom he bore witness and said: ‘I have found David the son of Jesʹse a man agreeable to my heart; he will do all the things I desire.’ 23 According to his promise, from the offspring of this man, God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus.

EDIT: You might pay close attention to this as well:
(Genesis 17:19) To this God said: “Your wife Sarah will definitely bear you a son, and you must name him Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant to his offspring after him.
(Genesis 21:12) Then God said to Abraham: “Do not be displeased by what Sarah is saying to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her, for what will be called your offspring will be through Isaac. This post was edited by texasescimo at August 15, 2017 6:05 PM MDT

TY Tex

I thought I was just clarifying for you the Muslim perspective of Ishmael and Moses in relation to Mohammed.

I was expecting you to either acknowledge that it's all clear or to ask about any aspect that was not still clear.

I don't see how you've managed to relate my post to the whole load of Bible verses you've quoted, or who Moses "would be considered to be a brother to" or your statement that "all the Jews could prove from what line of descent they had come from"

I did read the Genesis verses you quoted. For me God is far above any written word which seek to portray Him in a negative light, be it as racist or irrational or unjust.

As far as covenants are concerned, God has many EVERLASTING COVENANTS all over the Bible. There's one with all living creatures after the flood of Noah. There's one with Abraham, and because it is EVERLASTING it covers both Ishmael and Isaac and all their descendants.

Muslims have no problem with the Messiah being from the descendants of Isaac and not Ishmael. There is no racism, and shouldn't be any, in  true religion of God for all His human creation.

Quite disingenuous of you to change your previous post a day after I responded to it, yes? 
Quote: [I don't see how you've managed to relate my post to the whole load of Bible verses you've quoted, or who Moses "would be considered to be a brother to" or your statement that "all the Jews could prove from what line of descent they had come from"]

Perhaps it doesn't make sense because you went back and edited your prior response after I replied to it.

[This post was edited by CLURT at August 16, 2017 8:53 AM PDT]

Not sure what you're getting at now. You should be careful because there may be dishonesty in your insinuation that I have been dis honest.

There is no dishonesty on my part Any change I made to my post would have been purely editorial, to correct a point of grammar perhaps, That is very obvious from the fact that my post is still directly in response to yours which asks "Don't Muslims believe that Muhammad was somehow special because of his relationship with Moses and Ishmael and Ishmael was special due to his relationship with Abraham?" My post then does nothing more than describe how Muslims view Ishmael and Moses. If I had changed it in substance it would have become irrelevant to your post which it was responding to.



So, 

No dishonesty on my part at all. I just don't see how you expect me to tell you how my post relates to your previous post after you changed your post a day later. Remember, I responded to your post a day before you edited it.

You shouldn't insinuate that people are dishonest without evidence. You can't just jump to a conclusion on the basis that an edit was done after your response that the edit must have changed the substance of the post. In fact I have just shown you how that is very unlikely. The fact that you're repeating the same insinuation instead of offering an apology indicates that you din't understand my explanation. There is not much I add really.

I have just noticed a typo in my last post. What was meant to be "dishonest" appears as "dis honest". I was about to correct that but I won't, in case you you throw another rather rude accusation. 

I gave you the evidence. This post was edited by texasescimo at August 18, 2017 4:42 PM MDT

changed it from what??????

What are you talking about? Changed what from what?

EDIT: I edited this to make a point. I am editing again to show why. CLURT's initial response to this was in line with the context. 
Sorry CLURT. This post was edited by texasescimo at August 18, 2017 4:59 PM MDT

You've just done the very thing you've been despicably accusing me off.

I expect you know what statement are you making about yourself

Yes, I did change my previous comment after you responded to it. I then tried to make your post look somewhat irrelevant to my previous post. 
Just trying to make a point.

it's one error trying to cover up another.

You've not only made my response look irrelevant to your edited comment. You've made your edited comment look like a strange reply to my previous comment. That's what happens when you make a substantial change to a comment that has been responded to. That does not happen when you make only an editorial, or cosmetic change.

blah blah blah blah, and blah blah blah blaaaaah.
 I really lost interest after you edited your post a day after I responded to it. 

I didn't think I'd see that much dishonesty.

If you're honest you'd have said what the changes were that you're alleging.

Sorry, I don't have a photo graphic memory. That's why I went back to your post that I responded to so as to see why you said my post didn't relate to yours and then noticed that you had changed it. 
Talk about dishonesty. Give me a break.

"I don't have a photo graphic memory."

bye!

Hail hedonism.

"most Christians know less about their holy scriptures than most Atheists do"---that has certainly not been my experience on Q & A sites over the past 5 years.

The God of the Old and New Testaments is the same---Christ brought a new law and, significantly, a new reality that revealed a new relationship between God and His creation beyond that of the covenant with His chosen people as indicated in the Old Testament.

"Mirable Dictu" This post was edited by tom jackson at August 15, 2017 5:40 PM MDT