DId GOD actually write the Bible, or did He use Holy Ghost WRITERS?

1. I said "some authors say upfront that the words they’re writing are theirs not God’s." Now if I didn't give examples of that then I could be CHALLENGED to back up my claim. However, I did immediately follow that claim up with clear unambiguous examples of the authors doing just that. So how is that hypocrisy and how is that an attack on the Bible? And where's the challenge? What part of your response challenges the validity of what I posted?

2. Yes, I HAVE said things like all Muslims "bow in the same direction" in their prayers, that they "say the same required amount of prayers at the same time" and that they all "give the same greeting that Jesus" used to give. Again how is that hypocrisy and where is the attack on the Bible in that? And where's the challenge? What part of your response challenges the validity of any of those claims?

His chosen method of writing in now way means he wasn't inspired. 
(Luke 1:1-4) Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·ophʹi·lus, 4 so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

1. Your point here says nothing new. It is a repetition of a wider point which included examples from Paul's writings as well. I've already responded full to it. To repeat: if you regard the words of Lue to be divinely inspired then you should defend even more vigorously his claim that the resolve to write was his own, "I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order"

2. Your complaint here seems to be "you now saying something to the affect that you can't really tell who are really Muslims after years of YOU claiming over a billion Muslims doing those ritualistic things as proof of validity."

a] Perhaps you regard yourself qualified to declare JWs as the only true followers of the Christ and ISIS as the only true Muslims [they might agree with you fully] I do not consider myself qualified to define the "proof of validity" of who a Muslim is. Surely anyone who considers themselves a believer in Islam is a Muslim. Islamically, anyone who declares the Muslim creed of faith is a Muslim.

b] I haven't changed my position that there are nearly 2 billion Muslims around the world.

c] I haven't changed my position that Muslims throughout the world have a single focal point they face in their prayers, that they have the same ritual prayers, that they have the same identical scripture, that they fast during the same month and over the same duration of the day etc etc

I have ever said anything like ISIS is the only true Muslims? Your the one that claims 2 billion Muslims. Doesn't that 2 billion include ISIS, Boko Haram, the Taliban, Al-Queda, Shiites and Sunni that have a history of slaughtering one another as well as themselves, as well as many of these groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_groups

Has declaring 'the Muslim creed of faith' or having 'the same ritual prayers, that they have the same identical scripture, that they fast during the same month and over the same duration of the day etc etc' united them in a loving way or made them peaceful, even among themselves?


I would think that if Allah is a loving God that his followers would be different than the violent world we live in but way too often, they are the perpetrators. And Muhammad gave no way to identify his true followers as 'they have the same ritual prayers, that they have the same identical scripture, that they fast during the same month and over the same duration of the day etc etc'.

So which of the doctrines or scriptures of my belief is any of that meant to question or which of the doctrines or scriptures of your belief is any of that meant to be in support of?

I thought that perhaps you thought God was love and would somehow benefit his believers. If you think that 'the same ritual prayers, that they have the same identical scripture, that they fast during the same month and over the same duration of the day etc etc' is proof of God's backing, I just don't see it.

You often give the impression that in the Bible, only the words of Jesus are reliable. What do you make of these words?
(John 13:35) By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”
(Matthew 7:20) Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.

Where did I present that as "proof of God's backing" for you to say in response that you "just don't see it" as such? Is that an example of putting words in someone's mouth and then accusing them of making a claim whereas they actually didn't?

"You often give the impression that in the Bible, only the words of Jesus are reliable." if you read my first paragraph above it's not surprising you get unintended impressions from my posts. Yes, I talk a lot about the words of Jesus, but I don't think I go around saying that "only the words of Jesus are reliable". You want to quote me correctly? here's what I often say: I give priority to the words of Jesus above the words of other humans in the Bible [and here I mean the New Testament].

Quote: "Where did I present that as "proof of God's backing" for you to say in response that you "just don't see it" as such? Is that an example of putting words in someone's mouth and then accusing them of making a claim whereas they actually didn't?"

Did I say you said that or did I just say that if you think that, that I just don't see it. 

"I just say that if you think that" that is a "proof of God's backing" ----------------- so what makes you think that I think that that is a "proof of God's backing"? 

Sorry, I thought you were trying to make a point with the amount of times you've parroted that same ole ritualistic stuff. Didn't realize that you were just making small talk.

1. That's fine, but it might be better to comment on what I have said rather on what you think I was/am thinking.

2. It's also fine that you consider it "small talk" that we have a religion with nearly 2 billion followers and yet they have stayed agreed on one God, one scripture, one set of prayers, one direction in which they all face in those prayers, the same one month in which to fast, the same place to go for pilgrimage, and the same days in the year and the same pilgrimage rituals ...... for fourteen hundred years. I consider it quite significant, especially when compared to its sister religion which split up within its first century itself on three of its most fundamental issues of who God is and who Jesus was and what exactly is the Bible.

So what is your point? You just stressed the same ole tired numbers game again. If your point is not that it has God's backing, what is your point?

my point is that we have to agree to disagree on that one. You acknowledge it but say it's small talk whereas I consider it quite remarkable.

It would be remarkable if at least one sect was peaceful.

why stop there? It would be remarkable if the world learnt to resolve conflicts without the primitive use of brute force and killing machines

Sign the Pledge To End War @ https://worldbeyondwar.org/sign-pledge-end-war/

Man on his own cannot stop war. Signing that will not change peoples hearts. Pretty much everyone thinks that their side is right and wants vengeance for injustices or perceived injustices and do not really have faith that God will act so they take matters into their own hands.


(Psalm 46:8-10) Come and witness the activities of Jehovah, How he has done astonishing things on the earth.  9 He is bringing an end to wars throughout the earth. He breaks the bow and shatters the spear; He burns the military wagons with fire. 10 “Give in and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations; I will be exalted in the earth.”
(Isaiah 11:9) They will not cause any harm Or any ruin in all my holy mountain, Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah As the waters cover the sea.
(Micah 4:3) He will render judgment among many peoples And set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.

(Psalm 37:10, 11) Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.
(Matthew 5:5) “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.

that's part of the problem - everyone has their own "reason" not to sign

Psalms may seem okay but the reality is that a] not everyone subscribes to them and b] there are even those who claim that the alleged source of the very same Psalms is the one who told them to go and bomb countries back to the stone age and turn them into hell holes.

The scriptures show that there was to be an apostasy after the death of the apostles until the time of the end. Besides that, the scriptures are clear as to be able to tell those serving God from those not.

(Malachi 3:16-18) At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name. 17 “And they will be mine,” says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property. I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him.”

(Matthew 7:13-23) “Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it. 15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men. 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

(1 John 3:10-12) The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.

(John 13:35) By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

I don't want to prolong this dialogue but I thought I'd say that many Christians most probably agree with you that  "The scriptures show that there was to be an apostasy after the death of the apostles until the time of the end." and that "the scriptures are clear as to be able to tell those serving God from those not." Each is also most probably strongly convinced, just as you most probably are too, that the scriptures are clear that it is they who are truly serving God and the scriptures are also clear that it is all the others who are not serving God.

Not hardly. Most if not all Catholics I've spoken to think that they have been holding to the scriptures from the time of the scriptures being written, even thinking that Peter was the first Pope. Of course once you get into a conversation with them, they seem to lean more on tradition than scripture. Protestants seem to be split on most everything many of which believe that as long as you believe in Jesus, that is good enough. Some Protestants believe that almost everyone except for JW's or JW's and Catholics are preaching the truth. Many just think it is just different ways of serving the same God. Actually most Catholics and Protestants don't seem to know anything about the foretold apostasy. They also don't seem to have any qualms with killing people in wars and such, even members of their own religion. How does that fit in with John 13:35 to you?

Not hardly. Most if not all Catholics I've spoken to think that they have been holding to the scriptures from the time of the scriptures being written, even thinking that Peter was the first Pope. Of course once you get into a conversation with them, they seem to lean more on tradition than scripture. Protestants seem to be split on most everything many of which believe that as long as you believe in Jesus, that is good enough. Some Protestants believe that almost everyone except for JW's or JW's and Catholics are preaching the truth. Many just think it is just different ways of serving the same God. Actually most Catholics and Protestants don't seem to know anything about the foretold apostasy. They also don't seem to have any qualms with killing people in wars and such, even members of their own religion. How does that fit in with John 13:35 to you?

Of course, if Christ did found a Church, the tradition of that Church with regard to the accuracy and interpretation of the bible---since the "New" Testament was written sometime after Christ died---would have been essential.

Christ shared more with the apostles than they wrote down.  If we didn't have tradition and its development, we'd be stuck with the HQ and the JW interpretation of the bible.

Just another example of the "economy of salvation" as designed by God.

Hi Tom. Take the word Church for example. Protestant and Catholic buildings are called Churches. The original word meant Congregation, or an assembly of people, not a building. Tyndale got in a little trouble over translating it correctly. 

(Mark 7:9) Further, he said to them: “You skillfully disregard the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
(Mark 7:13) Thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like this.”


Jesus often spoke in parables and such. When spoken plainly, not much interpretation is really needed, is it?
(John 16:25) “I have spoken these things to you in comparisons. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in comparisons, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.
(John 16:29) His disciples said: “See! Now you are speaking plainly and are not using comparisons.
(John 17:1-3) Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

I am not qualified to put to you the counter arguments of Catholics or Protestants. However, one thing is obvious, all those who know the scriptures you quoted, but still hold on to their beliefs, are all obviously convinced that the warning in those scriptures does not apply to them.