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Discussion » Questions » Religion and Spirituality » Do you think that you have to start off with the belief that God is a trinity, prior to reading the Bible, to properly understand the Bible?

Do you think that you have to start off with the belief that God is a trinity, prior to reading the Bible, to properly understand the Bible?

(Not sure about the commas, Randy?)

Posted - February 7, 2018

Responses


  • 17364
    One can't form opinions without the knowledge to do so.  
      February 7, 2018 4:45 AM MST
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  • 6098
    No that could be very off-outing considering it is mainly an intellectual construct to explain what is in The Bible.  Not necessary for faith but more human theology.  OK by me but somewhat complicated to understand.  For those of us for whom absolute consistency is not all that important. 
      February 7, 2018 4:58 AM MST
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  • 492
    No, the trinity is an after-though of a unity. It's the result of a triune playing an important role in people's faith. You can believe that God is a trinity before you read the bible, after you read the bible, or not believe that God is a trinity at all and nothing changes. 
      February 7, 2018 5:07 AM MST
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  • I disagree. God is manifest in three persons/personalities. New Testament scriptures point to a Triune Godhead. It is more than a show of unity. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father in an intercessory capacity. Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as being a comforter sent after His ascension to Heaven after the resurrection. When Jesus was baptized by John, the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove and the voice of God was heard. The Bible continually supports this reality throughout. The Holy Spirit convicts the heart of man and points the way to salvation through Jesus Christ. He is a teacher, comforter and guide through temptation and adversity. The baptism of Christ's followers by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room was a pivotal event in the establishment of the First Century church. There's enough references and teaching in scripture to refute the notion of Christ only, or God only and to reinforce the idea of God in three persons. 
      February 7, 2018 7:07 AM MST
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  • 2657
    Hello uncle bob. What do you make of Jesus saying that the Father is the only true God and Paul saying that the Father is one God?


    (John 17:1-3) Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

    (1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

    (Romans 3:30) Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith.
      February 7, 2018 8:09 AM MST
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  • 5808
    To really understand
    you must know God.
    You must have a Direct Experience
    of God to understand life
    and to understand your Self.
         God exists within you as you.
    If you look within your Self
    you can experience that Absolute truth.
    A direct experience is the only
    way to realize our true nature.
         Reading the Bible will never 
    give you that direct experience
    or give you a complete understanding
    of your Self and God.
         Get a direct experience for 
    the complete knowledge of God.
         Then you can read your Religious books
    with true understanding and realization.
         We always look outside of ourselves
    for the answers to life. First look within
    and see directly through the eyes of Truth
    for the fulfilling experience, and then
    you can read anything with a clear understanding
    of the truth and where many have created falsehoods 
    with the message they provide.
         So, First visit God , become the oneness
    that is within you.
         How to do that?
    By looking within through Meditation.
    https://answermug.com/blogs/628/1483/meditation
    Cheers
         

    This post was edited by Baba at February 7, 2018 8:31 AM MST
      February 7, 2018 7:53 AM MST
    1

  • 6023

    Trinity?

    That depends on which part of the Bible you believe.

    Old Testament had no trinity.
    God either talked to people directly, or sent an angelic messenger to do so.  There was not even mention of a "Holy Spirit".

    New Testament ... suddenly God decides He needs a mortal kid, and a spirit, in order to communicate with people.


      February 7, 2018 8:00 AM MST
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  • 2657
    Definitely no trinity, Hebrew nor Greek scriptures.

    Gen 1:2 reveals that the spirit is just like God's powerful wind, active force or the means by which He does things, His finger so to speak. Holy spirit is not mentioned as such in the Hebrew scriptures as much but it is a couple of times.


    https://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php
    Gen 1:2 (NJB) Now the earth was a formless void, there was darkness over the deep, with a divine wind sweeping over the waters.

    https://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis1:327
    Gen 1:2 (NAB) and the earth was without form or shape, with darkness over the abyss and a mighty wind sweeping over the waters

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gen/1/2/t_bibles_1002
    Gen 1:2 (KJV) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Gen 1:2 (HNV) Now the eretz was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep. God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters


    (Matthew 12:28) But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.
    (Luke 11:20) But if it is by means of God’s finger that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.

    (Psalm 51:11) Do not cast me out from your presence; And do not take your holy spirit away from me.
    (Isaiah 63:10, 11) But they rebelled and grieved his holy spirit. He then turned into their enemy, And he fought against them. 11 And they remembered the days of old, The days of Moses his servant: “Where is the One who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is the One who put within him His holy spirit,
      February 7, 2018 12:21 PM MST
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  • 6477
    You mean it's meant to be understood? 
      February 7, 2018 8:31 AM MST
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  • 2657
    Yup. Centuries ago they only allowed Bible reading in Latin, even when Latin was not the common language of the people. Some only read translations in archaic language even though language has changed.

    .
    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015885?q=you+can+understand+the+bible&p=par
    YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE - A Book to Be Understood
    .
    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015886
    Finding Help to Understand the Bible

      February 7, 2018 9:01 AM MST
    1

  • 2217
    The Trinity is not specifically in the Bible. 
      February 7, 2018 9:35 AM MST
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  • 2657
    Got that right. The Catholic Encyclopedia says as much.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm

    At various points the author calls attention to the penalty incurred by those who refuse to accept any of the articles therein set down.

     The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible

     

    So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

     

    So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal

     

    Who, then, is the author? The results of recent inquiry make it highly probable that the Creed first saw the light in the fourth century, during the life of the great Eastern patriarch, or shortly after his death

     

    The "damnatory", or "minatory clauses", are the pronouncements contained in the symbol, of the penalties which follow the rejection of what is there proposed for our belief. It opens with one of them: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith". The same is expressed in the verses beginning: "Furthermore, it is necessary" etc., and "For the right Faith is" etc., and finally in the concluding verse: "This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved". Just as the Creed states in a very plain and precise way what the Catholic Faith is concerning the important doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation, so it asserts with equal plainness and precision what will happen to those who do not faithfully and steadfastly believe in these revealed truths..

    From a dogmatic standpoint, the merely historical question of the authorship of the Creed, or of the time it made its appearance, is of secondary consideration. The fact alone that it is approved by the Church as expressing its mind on the fundamental truths with which it deals, is all we need to know. 

      February 7, 2018 12:25 PM MST
    2

  • 1128
    I don't believe in the Trinity
      February 7, 2018 9:40 AM MST
    2

  • 2657
    Me either, do you believe in Jesus?
      February 7, 2018 12:26 PM MST
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  • 2706
    Nope. I don't think that. 
      February 7, 2018 11:00 AM MST
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  • 2657
    I don't think so either but someone keeps telling me that I can't properly interpret the Bible because I don't believe in the trinity.
      February 7, 2018 12:27 PM MST
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  • 2706
    I'm not understanding the logic behind them telling you that. There's also some people that'll tell you that you can't be saved if you don't believe in the trinity. That's also illogical and can't be found in the Bible.


      February 7, 2018 3:50 PM MST
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  • 2657
    It seems that a lot of people put more stock in Catechisms and such than they do the Bible and some don't seem to know the difference. 
     
    I've heard that one before as well. 
      February 7, 2018 5:35 PM MST
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  • 7280
    Without the Holy Spirit, you can interpret the scriptures, but you are unable to mine their truths---as you frequently demonstrate.

    But God doesn't make "junk," so I am confident you serve Him in some way.

    (It seems that He doesn't think I need to know how you are doing that.)
      February 7, 2018 8:37 PM MST
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  • 2657
    Ya definitely need guidance from the holy spirit to understand.

    A bit much but may help in regards to the holy spirit:
    [...God’s Active Force; Holy Spirit. By far the majority of occurrences of ruʹach and pneuʹma relate to God’s spirit, his active force, his holy spirit.
    Not a person. Not until the fourth century C.E. did the teaching that the holy spirit was a person and part of the “Godhead” become official church dogma. Early church “fathers” did not so teach; Justin Martyr of the second century C.E. taught that the holy spirit was an ‘influence or mode of operation of the Deity’; Hippolytus likewise ascribed no personality to the holy spirit. The Scriptures themselves unite to show that God’s holy spirit is not a person but is God’s active force by which he accomplishes his purpose and executes his will.
    It may first be noted that the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (KJ) found in older translations at 1 John 5:7 are actually spurious additions to the original text. A footnote in The Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation, says that these words are “not in any of the early Greek MSS [manuscripts], or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the Vulg[ate] itself.” A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, by Bruce Metzger (1975, pp. 716-718), traces in detail the history of the spurious passage. It states that the passage is first found in a treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus, of the fourth century, and that it appears in Old Latin and Vulgate manuscripts of the Scriptures, beginning in the sixth century. Modern translations as a whole, both Catholic and Protestant, do not include them in the main body of the text, because of recognizing their spurious nature.—RS, NE, NAB.
    Personification does not prove personality. It is true that Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper” and spoke of such helper as ‘teaching,’ ‘bearing witness,’ ‘giving evidence,’ ‘guiding,’ ‘speaking,’ ‘hearing,’ and ‘receiving.’ In so doing, the original Greek shows Jesus at times applying the masculine personal pronoun to that “helper” (paraclete). (Compare Joh 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15.) However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT) Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.” The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) He speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
    So, likewise with John’s account of Jesus’ words regarding the holy spirit, his remarks must be taken in context. Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the masculine substantive pa·raʹkle·tos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns. On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneuʹma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun to refer to the holy spirit, pneuʹma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with pa·raʹkle·tos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.—Joh 14:16, 17; 16:7, 8.
    Lacks personal identification. Since God himself is a Spirit and is holy and since all his faithful angelic sons are spirits and are holy, it is evident that if the “holy spirit” were a person, there should reasonably be given some means in the Scriptures to distinguish and identify such spirit person from all these other ‘holy spirits.’ It would be expected that, at the very least, the definite article would be used with it in all cases where it is not called “God’s holy spirit” or is not modified by some similar expression. This would at least distinguish it as THE Holy Spirit. But, on the contrary, in a large number of cases the expression “holy spirit” appears in the original Greek without the article, thus indicating its lack of personality.—Compare Ac 6:3, 5; 7:55; 8:15, 17, 19; 9:17; 11:24; 13:9, 52; 19:2; Ro 9:1; 14:17; 15:13, 16, 19; 1Co 12:3; Heb 2:4; 6:4; 2Pe 1:21; Jude 20, Int and other interlinear translations.
    How baptized in its “name.” At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” A “name” can mean something other than a personal name. When, in English, we say, “in the name of the law,” or “in the name of common sense,” we have no reference to a person as such. By “name” in these expressions we mean ‘what the law stands for or its authority’ and ‘what common sense represents or calls for.’ The Greek term for “name” (oʹno·ma) also can have this sense. Thus, while some translations (KJ, AS) follow the Greek text at Matthew 10:41 literally and say that the one that “receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, shall receive a righteous man’s reward,” more modern translations say, “receives a prophet because he is a prophet” and “receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man,” or similar. (RS, AT, JB, NW) Thus, Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament (1930, Vol. I, p. 245) says on Matthew 28:19: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” Hence baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ implies recognition of that spirit as having its source in God and as exercising its function according to the divine will.
    Other evidence of its impersonal nature. Further evidence against the idea of personality as regards the holy spirit is the way it is used in association with other impersonal things, such as water and fire (Mt 3:11; Mr 1:8); and Christians are spoken of as being baptized “in holy spirit.” (Ac 1:5; 11:16) Persons are urged to become “filled with spirit” instead of with wine. (Eph 5:18) So, too, persons are spoken of as being ‘filled’ with it along with such qualities as wisdom and faith (Ac 6:3, 5; 11:24) or joy (Ac 13:52); and holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities at 2 Corinthians 6:6. It is most unlikely that such expressions would be made if the holy spirit were a divine person. As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.) It may thus be compared to radio waves that can transmit a message from a person speaking into a microphone and cause his voice to be heard by persons a distance away, in effect, ‘speaking’ the message by a radio loudspeaker. God, by his spirit, transmits his messages and communicates his will to the minds and hearts of his servants on earth, who, in turn, may convey that message to yet others.
    Distinguished from “power.” Ruʹach and pneuʹma, therefore, when used with reference to God’s holy spirit, refer to God’s invisible active force by which he accomplishes his divine purpose and will. It is “holy” because it is from Him, not of an earthly source, and is free from all corruption as “the spirit of holiness.” (Ro 1:4) It is not Jehovah’s “power,” for this English word more correctly translates other terms in the original languages (Heb., koʹach; Gr., dyʹna·mis). Ruʹach and pneuʹma are used in close association or even in parallel with these terms signifying “power,” which shows that there is an inherent connection between them and yet a definite distinction. (Mic 3:8; Zec 4:6; Lu 1:17, 35; Ac 10:38) “Power” is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things and it can be latent, dormant, or inactively resident in someone or something. “Force,” on the other hand, more specifically describes energy projected and exerted on persons or things, and may be defined as “an influence that produces or tends to produce motion, or change of motion.” “Power” might be likened to the energy stored in a battery, while “force” could be compared to the electric current flowing from such battery. “Force,” then, more accurately represents the sense of the Hebrew and Greek terms as relating to God’s spirit, and this is borne out by a consideration of the Scriptures....]
      February 7, 2018 8:48 PM MST
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  • 7280
    It's not necessary to start off with the concept of the trinity to read the bible...

    But when you start reading the New Testament, the sooner you realize that God is a triune God, you will be able to more easily understand and participate in the new reality that Christ established that changed the relationship of God's creation to its creator....

    And you will come to see that the new reality involves the active presence of the third person of the trinity the Holy Spirit in our lives....

    And from Wikipedia, a good summary of His role: ...

    In Christian theology the Holy Spirit is believed to perform specific divine functions in the life of the Christian or the church. The action of the Holy Spirit is seen as an essential part of the bringing of the person to the Christian faith. The new believer is "born again of the Spirit". The Holy Spirit enables Christian life by dwelling in the individual believers and enables them to live a righteous and faithful life. The Holy Spirit also acts as comforter or Paraclete, one who intercedes, or supports or acts as an advocate, particularly in times of trial. And he acts to convince the unredeemed person both of the sinfulness of their actions, and of their moral standing as sinners before God. Another faculty of the Holy Spirit is the inspiration and interpretation of scripture. The Holy Spirit both inspires the writing of the scriptures and interprets them to the Christian and/or church.  The Holy Spirit also empowers the believers to act on Jesus' behalf today here on earth operating in signs, wonders, and miracles like Jesus did and released his disciples to do in the Gospels; Luke 10, Matthew 10, and Mark 6. John 14:12 are the words of Jesus encouraging his disciples that they can do as he did. John 14–17 you can read the words Jesus spoke regarding sending his Spirit the Holy Spirit to live in those who believe in him empowering us to carry forth his commission given in Matthew 28:18–20.

    A triune God is---in my opinion---a much more powerful and interesting God than a single-person God---and in fact is what I am sure actually exists...

    Christ told us to attribute certain acts to the father, son, and spirit---praying based on that insight has had excellent results for me.
      February 7, 2018 12:42 PM MST
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  • 2657
    None of those scriptures forces a trinitarian outlook. 
    Take your John 14 - 17 for instance. Did you notice how Jesus counts himself as separate from God? (John 14:1) How Jesus shows the Father is greater than He is? (John 14:28) How Jesus is subordinate to, commanded by and sent by the Father? (John 14:31;15:10,21) How Jesus said plainly (Not a comparison or parable) that the Father is the only true God? (John 16:25-17:3)

    (John 14:1) “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me.
    (John 14:28) You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.
    (John 14:31) But for the world to know that I love the Father, I am doing just as the Father has commanded me to do. Get up, let us go from here.
    (John 15:10) If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.
    (John 15:21) But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.
    (John 16:25) “I have spoken these things to you in comparisons. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in comparisons, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.
    (John 16:27) For the Father himself has affection for you, because you have had affection for me and have believed that I came as God’s representative.
    (John 17:1-3) Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
      February 7, 2018 8:43 PM MST
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  • 2657
    Don't forget that no one professing to be a Christian suspected a trinity before the 4th century.


    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm

     

    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Athanasian Creed
     
     

     

    At various points the author calls attention to the penalty incurred by those who refuse to accept any of the articles therein set down.

     

    The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible

     

    So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

     

    So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal

     

    Who, then, is the author? The results of recent inquiry make it highly probable that the Creed first saw the light in the fourth century, during the life of the great Eastern patriarch, or shortly after his death

     

    The "damnatory", or "minatory clauses", are the pronouncements contained in the symbol, of the penalties which follow the rejection of what is there proposed for our belief. It opens with one of them: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith". The same is expressed in the verses beginning: "Furthermore, it is necessary" etc., and "For the right Faith is" etc., and finally in the concluding verse: "This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved". Just as the Creed states in a very plain and precise way what the Catholic Faith is concerning the important doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation, so it asserts with equal plainness and precision what will happen to those who do not faithfully and steadfastly believe in these revealed truths..

    From a dogmatic standpoint, the merely historical question of the authorship of the Creed, or of the time it made its appearance, is of secondary consideration.  The fact alone that it is approved by the Church as expressing its mind on the fundamental truths with which it deals, is all we need to know. 



      February 20, 2018 6:59 PM MST
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  • 5391
    When one considers that the many contrasting “takes“ on the same source material has birthed literally thousands of Christian sects, all of whom hold their differing interpretations to be “the true word” (a logical impossibility), it can be shown that the Bible can be “understood“ in some fancy by anyone who applies themselves soberly to the task.

    Understanding it “properly” has been a subject of much debate, bloodshed, a few schisms, a major Reformation, and countless accusations of heresy. There are even different versions of the book to suit nearly every position.  

    I know the word ‘Trinity’ does not appear in the Gospels, one must infer it; and having studied the book and its attendant history myself for years, I do indeed understand it; yet I don’t believe at all in either the Trinity, the unerring word of God, nor in the Abrahamic God himself. But I get why others do.
    For me, the first and biggest push toward unbelief was reading and understanding the Bible. 

    *Texas, I urge you to forgo reciting scripture as a reply, I won’t bother with it. I would, however, welcome a brief, thoughtful response in YOUR own words. For a change. 

    This post was edited by Don Barzini at February 7, 2018 8:11 PM MST
      February 7, 2018 7:47 PM MST
    0