Discussion»Statements»Rosie's Corner» Is everyone equal in Heaven? Do the rich live in wealthy neighborhoods with servants and other pricy things? Does God have favorites?
Hahahahahahahaha! I've heard that "eye of the needle" quote Kg. "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven". I don't know if I quoted that verbatim but you get the drift. I imagine that we all imagine Heaven to be something specific for us. The wealthy will expect to continue on with a privileged life and I think the poor will just be grateful to be there and have no grand expectations. Different realities different imaginings. Thank you for your reply and Happy Thursday! :)
Correct. The question is absurd for those who think Heaven is hogwash and serious for those who believe it isn't. Different strokes. Thank you for your reply SB and Happy Thursday to thee.
I don't believe in Christianity but since I went to a Christian school from Kindergarten to 8th grade I can at least tell you how my denomination would answer that question and the answer is no!
Your position in heaven is based on how much treasure you stored up in heaven while you were alive.
They also said that in heaven everyone will have a job or duty.
Umm yeah, kind of makes it hard to get excited about ETERNITY!
Thank you for your reply and the graphic Liv and Happy Thursday. I assume the wealthy will have better jobs than the poor. I bet that's what they assume as well.
I have read that each angel exhausts its own species.
We may or may not be equal (and that word has many meanings) but I expect we will all be unique---and truly enjoy our diversity.
This post was edited by tom jackson at February 1, 2018 4:40 PM MST
Of course I don't KNOW tom but I assume that the wealthy assume their lives in heaven will be even more glorious than on earth. I expect they expect to continue on experiencing privilege. Another respondent said that everyone in Heaven will have a job and she accompanied it with someone cleaning a toilet on her hands and knees. I doubt the wealthy would put up with it. I think they're too used to be waited on. But again I don't KNOW. Thank you for your reply. Could you clarify something for me please? What do you mean when you say "each ANGLE exhausts its own species"? Thanks m'dear!
So much depends on whose version of heaven you want to lend credence to. Walking alone in a field, floating in clouds or bestriding halls of gold.
Would it be fair to say all those NOT roasting in hell are equally his favorites? Or do we imagine cliques in the afterlife also? Oh yea, politics.
As I understand it, our souls are to spend eternity in “the company of God/Allah/Yahweh”, which is, in itself, an unimaginable pleasure. So much so in fact, that even the writers of scripture could conjure only murky descriptions of it, (but isn’t it curious that “the other place” is described in nearly granular detail).
As much as is left to the imagination, we can fantasize heaven to our liking. And why not, heaven is a component of hope. The carrot.
This post was edited by Don Barzini at February 1, 2018 7:33 PM MST
Hello Don. I suppose as you understand it "our souls are to spend eternity in “the company of God/Allah/Yahweh”, which is, in itself, an unimaginable pleasure" means as told by popular religions or the Bible? (I know you are not saying you believe it either way.) What do you suppose the ones that go to heaven are going to do there? "The other place", hell? Does the Bible really teach conscience torment of immortal souls as many teach?
I draw from a consensus of theistic beliefs, to include associated literature like the Hadith and Dante’s Inferno. Since I don’t hold the Bible as any more or less credible than any other of man’s Holy Books, I took a general approach.
Compare all the available descriptions of the 2 leading destinations of the Abrahamic afterlife, the scale is very one-sided. I say the reasoning for this is obvious.
I’m not able to discern what exactly folks do in paradise for eternity, except perhaps that martyrs for Islam get to drink wine and fornicate. That might just make it worth considering. ;-)
So, if indeed the Creator of the Universe isn’t so fickle as to exclude me from his magic kingdom merely because he failed to convince me of his existence, then I‘d hope to be a vintner in heaven.
As to your last question, you know scripture, consider: Matt 13:50, Matt. 25:46, Rev. 20:10, Rev.21:8. You may find these relevant. Food for thought...
*note- I have no wish to encourage you to regale us with long passages of Bible scripture. Thanks in advance.
This post was edited by Don Barzini at January 31, 2018 10:29 PM MST
God, heaven, hell, and all such subjective constructs are textbook examples of the self-fulfilling prophecy. They basically exist for those who choose to believe they do, and don't exist for those who don't believe.
Indeed they are, Stu. Accretions of folklore, metaphors and fantastical assertions lacking basis in fact, spun to purpose by writers who lived long after the events they pretend to describe.
This post was edited by Don Barzini at February 1, 2018 7:52 AM MST
I'm missing your point here as obviously you know that rather or not God, heaven and hell actually exist has nothing to do with rather or not someone believes they do, yes?
Never really got clarity of your beliefs. Not sure but you believe in the Torah and the Mishnah, right? Talmud?
Which of course begs the question as to whether or not they actually exist---regardless of whether or not we think they do....
And if they do exist, then they are NOT textbook examples of self-fulfilling prophesies---rather they are examples of truth, the conformity of the mind to that which exists.
'*note- I have no wish to encourage you to regale us with long passages of Bible scripture. Thanks in advance.'
So you don't really like to 'draw from a consensus of theistic beliefs' or 'compare all the available descriptions', at least not with the context? You can ignore my post if you like but I think that a sincere person would prefer to know the context of a book they often comment on, or against. You do know that Revelation is highly symbolic, yes? I would think that a sincere person would want to consider a bit more on the subject before passing judgement.
God would not torture us for eternity if it never even came up into his heart. https://bible.cc/jeremiah/7-31.htm (Jeremiah 19:5) And they built the high places of the Ba′al in order to burn their sons in the fire as whole burnt offerings to the Ba′al, something that I had not commanded or spoken of, and thathad not come up into my heart.”’
"The wages sin pays is death"(Romans 6:23),not an immortal soul burning in Hell. "The soul that sins itself will die"(Ez 18:4)
Matthew 5:22 speaks of those liable to “hell fire” or “Gehenna”. To use “hell fire” gives a false idea, for in the original Greek it reads gehenna of fire; gehenna is the Greek for the Hebrew ge′i-Hinnom, meaning “valley of Hinnom”. This valley lay to the west and south of ancient Jerusalem. During the time of the later kings of Judah it was used in the idolatrous worship of Molech, human sacrifices being offered to this god by fire. (Josh. 15:8; 2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 32; 32:35) To prevent its use again for such horrible religious purposes faithful King Josiah had it polluted and it came to be the dumping place and incinerator for the refuse of Jerusalem. (2 Ki. 23:10) The dead bodies of animals were thrown in, to be consumed by the fires kept burning there and to which sulphur or brimstone was added to assist the burning. Even bodies of executed criminals thought too vile to have a resurrection were disposed of there. If the bodies did not reach the fires but lodged on a ledge of the deep ravine worms (maggots) consumed them. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4663&t=NASB
Everlasting fire is symbolic of everlasting cutting-off or the second death. (Matthew 25:41) “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. (Matthew 10:28) And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na. (2 Peter 2:6) and by reducing the cities Sod′om and Go‧mor′rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come; (Jude 7) So too Sod′om and Go‧mor′rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire. (Revelation 20:14) And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. (Daniel 12:2) And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence. (2 Thessalonians 1:9) These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, (Matthew 25:46) And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”
Genesis 2:7 tells us: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” The account does not say that God implanted in man an immortal soul. It says that when God’s power energized Adam’s body, he “came to be a living soul.” So man is a soul. He does not have a soul. God created Adam to live on earth, not in heaven. Earth was not to be a mere testing ground to see if Adam qualified for heaven. God formed the earth “to be inhabited,” and Adam was its first human inhabitant. (Isaiah 45:18; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Later, when God created Eve as a wife for Adam, God’s purpose for them was that they should populate the earth and turn it into a paradise as humankind’s eternal home.—Genesis 1:26-31; Psalm 37:29. Nowhere does the Bible say that part of Adam was immortal. On the contrary, his existence was conditional, based on obedience to God’s law. If he broke that law, what then? Eternal life in the spirit realm? Not at all. Instead, he would “positively die.” (Genesis 2:17) He would go back where he came from: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 2:7; 3:19) Adam had no existence before he was created, and he would have none after he died. So he had only two choices: (1) obedience and life or (2) disobedience and death. If Adam had not sinned, he would have lived on earth forever. He would never have gone to heaven. Adam disobeyed, and he died. (Genesis 5:5) Death was his punishment. It was not a doorway to a “glorious adventure” but a doorway to nonexistence. Thus, death is not a friend but is what the Bible calls it, an “enemy.” (1 Corinthians 15:26) If Adam had had an immortal soul that would go to heaven if he was obedient, then death would have been a blessing. But it was not. It was a curse. And with Adam’s sin, the curse of death spread to all humans because all are his offspring.—Romans 5:12. Further, if Adam had been created with an immortal soul that would be tormented forever in a fiery hell if he sinned, why was he not warned about this? Why was he only told that he would die and return to dust? How unfair it would have been to condemn Adam to an eternity of torture for disobedience, yet not warn him about it! However, with God “there is no injustice.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) There was no need to warn Adam about a fiery hell for the immortal souls of the wicked. Such a hell did not exist, nor did immortal souls exist. (Jeremiah 19:5; 32:35) There is no eternal torment in the dust of the ground.
What about "The Rich Man and Lazarus"—What Is the Lesson? JESUS CHRIST often taught a lesson by telling a story. Here is how Jesus began one famous story: “A certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. But a certain beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.” So Jesus simply said a certain man was rich, dressed expensively and ate well, while Lazarus was hungry, covered with ulcers and licked by dogs. Was this a story about real people? No. The Catholic Jerusalem Bible in a footnote explains that this is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” Note why, from what Jesus next says: “Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham. Also, the rich man died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in the bosom position with him. So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’”—Luke 16:19-24. As you can see, Jesus said nothing about the rich man’s living a degraded life worthy of fiery punishment; the man’s failing was that he did not feed the poor. Further, Jesus said nothing about Lazarus’ doing good things, things that clearly would merit his going to heaven, which is what some churches claim is the meaning of his being taken to Abraham’s bosom. Furthermore, Abraham, like David, was dead and in his grave, so angels literally could not carry Lazarus to his bosom. (Acts 2:29, 34; John 3:13) And if the rich man were in a literal fire, surely Lazarus could not benefit him with just a drop of water! Who, then, was pictured by the rich man and who by Lazarus? What was represented by their deaths? The rich man pictured the self-important religious leaders who failed to feed the people spiritually, and Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted Jesus Christ. Their deaths represented a change in their condition. This change, or death to the former condition of the rich man and of Lazarus, occurred when Jesus fed the neglected Lazaruslike people spiritually. Thus, they came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the self-important Jewish religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor and came to be tormented by the teachings of Christ and his followers. For example, when Stephen publicly exposed them, “they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth . . . and put their hands over their ears.” They felt torment.—Acts 7:51-57. So rather than teaching a fiery-hell torment after death, Jesus’ story describes the change of condition that his teachings accomplished among two classes of people.
Luke 15 and 16 have several parables. Not everyone will get the since of them. Remember, sheep and goats do not usually mean farm animals. The problem seems to be that many preachers start off with a parable or something given in signs such as Revelation, and the try to get everything else to fit in with a literal interpretation of that. Luke 15:3 "Then he spoke this illustration to them, saying: 4 “What man of YOU with a hundred sheep, on losing one of them, will not leave the ninety-nine behind in the wilderness and go for the lost one until he finds it?" Luke 15:8 "Or what woman with ten drachma coins, if she loses one drachma coin, does not light a lamp and sweep her house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it she calls the women who are her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found the drachma coin that I lost" Luke 15:11 "Then he said: “A certain man had two sons" Luke 16:1 "Then he went on to say also to the disciples: “A certain man was rich and he had a steward.." Luke 16:19 "But a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. 20 But a certain beggar named Laz′a‧rus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers"
Oh dear, Texas. You just don’t know when to give it a rest, do you? No, I won’t bother with your version of Christian dogma. The quotes I referenced are exquisitely clear on their own.
This post was edited by Don Barzini at February 1, 2018 7:53 AM MST
Kittigate 