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Jesus saved souls. What else might He have saved?

Posted - April 10, 2018
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  • 2657
    Gotta go for now but you will not look up the scriptures anyway.

    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2014162?q=%E2%80%9CHE+GAVE+HIS+ONLY+BEGOTTEN+SON%E2%80%9D&p=par
      May 20, 2018 7:58 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    I'm not discussing with the article I'm discussing with you. Give me your answer first then you can point to an article for further reading.
      May 20, 2018 8:13 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    So you admit you have no sincere interest, just tongue and cheek.
    You likely want understand or read any of this.

    (Genesis 2:17) But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”
    (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
    (Exodus 21:23) But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life,
    (Psalm 49:6-9) Those who are trusting in their wealth And who boast about their great riches,  7 None of them can ever redeem a brother Or give to God a ransom for him,  8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious That it is always beyond their reach);  9 That he should live forever and not see the pit.
    (Romans 3:23, 24) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.
    (Romans 6:23) For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
    (John 3:16) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
    (1 Corinthians 15:45) So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    (Isaiah 53:12) For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many, And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty, Because he poured out his life even to death And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people, And he interceded for the transgressors.
    (John 3:16) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
    (Ephesians 2:4, 5) But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved.
    (1 Peter 3:18) For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.
    (1 John 4:10) The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.
      May 20, 2018 11:57 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    1. I'm not a fan of mountains of scripture. In point 4 of my last post but one I said "You need to clarify why Jesus died. Did he die for the sins of mankind because forgiveness of sins must have shedding of blood, or did he die because of the law of a life for a life?"
     
      May 20, 2018 1:23 PM MDT
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  • 2657


    “HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON”
    All mankind is mortal, subject to the scourge of sickness, old age, and death. Yet that is not what Jehovah God originally purposed. He gave the first humans the prospect of living forever in a paradise on earth. But there was one condition: They had to obey him. God said that if they chose not to, they would die. (Genesis 2:17) The first man did indeed rebel against God’s authority, and he brought death upon himself and his offspring. “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned,” explains the apostle Paul.—Romans 5:12.
    God, however, “loves justice.” (Psalm 37:28) Even though he could not ignore the deliberate act of transgression on the part of the first man, God has not condemned all humanity to suffering and death forever on account of one man’s disobedience. On the contrary, by applying the legal principle of “life for life,” he has balanced the scales of justice and made everlasting life possible once again for obedient humans. (Exodus 21:23) The question is, How could Adam’s loss of perfect human life be recovered? The answer: Someone had to offer up, or sacrifice, a life of equal value to Adam’s—a perfect human life.
    Clearly, no imperfect descendant of Adam was capable of offering such a price, but Jesus was. (Psalm 49:6-9) Born without the stain of inherited sin, Jesus was perfect, just as Adam had been. Thus, by surrendering his life, Jesus ransomed mankind from slavery to sin. By so doing, he offered descendants of the first human couple the opportunity to enjoy the same perfect life that Adam and Eve once did. (Romans 3:23, 24; 6:23) Is there anything that we need to do to benefit from such a magnanimous act of love?
    (Genesis 2:17) But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”
    (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
    (Psalm 37:28) For Jehovah loves justice, And he will not abandon his loyal ones. They will always be guarded; But the descendants of the wicked will be done away with.
    (Exodus 21:23) But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life,
    (Psalm 49:6-9) Those who are trusting in their wealth And who boast about their great riches,  7 None of them can ever redeem a brother Or give to God a ransom for him,  8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious That it is always beyond their reach);  9 That he should live forever and not see the pit.
    (Romans 3:23, 24) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.
    (Romans 6:23) For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

    (1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.
      May 20, 2018 7:08 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    So Jesus died through the application of the law of retribution or “life for life” as you put it [though I wish you hadn't buried it in a ton of scriptures] 

    Under this law if you knocked off someone's tooth you lost your tooth, if you took someone's eye then you lost your eye and if you took someone's life then you lost your life. If Jesus lost his life under this law of retribution one has to ask whose life did he take?
      May 20, 2018 7:50 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Can't really find out what the Bible is about by isolating one verse from the rest and making a doctrine out of it while ignoring the rest.

    Jesus didn't take any life, he gave his life in place of all of Adam's descendants to buy back what Adam lost. 
    (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.


    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102015145?q=%22God%E2%80%99s+Greatest+Gift%22&p=par

    WHAT IS THE RANSOM?

    3. Why do humans die?

    3 The ransom is Jehovah’s way of freeing humans from sin and death. (Ephesians 1:7) To understand why the ransom was needed, we have to know what happened thousands of years ago in the garden of Eden. Our first parents, Adam and Eve, sinned. Because they sinned, they died. We also die because we inherited sin from Adam and Eve.​—See Endnote 9.

    4. Who was Adam, and what did he have?

    4 When Jehovah created the first man, Adam, He gave him something very precious. He gave Adam perfect human life. He had a perfect mind and a perfect body. He would never get sick, would never grow old, and would never die. Because Jehovah created Adam, He was like a father to him. (Luke 3:38) Jehovah regularly talked to him. God clearly explained to Adam what he expected from him and gave him enjoyable work to do.​—Genesis 1:28-30; 2:16, 17.

    5. What does it mean when the Bible says that Adam was made “in God’s image”?

    5 Adam was created “in God’s image.” (Genesis 1:27) Jehovah gave him qualities like His own, including love, wisdom, justice, and power. He gave Adam free will. Adam was not a robot. God created him so that he could choose to do right or wrong. If Adam had chosen to obey God, he could have lived forever in Paradise.

    6. When Adam disobeyed God, what did he lose? How does this affect us?

    6 When he disobeyed God and was sentenced to death, Adam paid a very high price. He lost his special friendship with Jehovah, his perfect life, and his Paradise home. (Genesis 3:17-19) Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, so there was no hope for them. Because of what Adam did, “sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Romans 5:12) When Adam sinned, he “sold” himself and us into slavery to sin and death. (Romans 7:14) Is there any hope for us? Yes, there is.

    7, 8. What is a ransom?

    7 What is a ransom? The idea of a ransom basically involves two things. First, a ransom is the price paid to release someone or to buy something back. Second, a ransom is the price that covers, or pays, the cost of something.

    8 No human could pay for the enormous damage that Adam did when he sinned and brought death upon us. But Jehovah provided the way to free us from sin and death. Let us learn how the ransom works and how we can benefit from it.

    HOW JEHOVAH PROVIDED THE RANSOM

    9. How could the ransom be paid?

    9 None of us could ever pay the ransom for the perfect life that Adam lost. Why not? Because all of us are imperfect. (Psalm 49:7, 8) The ransom that had to be paid was another perfect human life. That is why it is called “a corresponding ransom.” (1 Timothy 2:6) The ransom had to have the same value as the life that Adam lost.

    10. How did Jehovah provide the ransom?

    10 How did Jehovah provide the ransom? Jehovah sent his most precious Son to the earth. This Son, Jesus, was his very first creation. (1 John 4:9, 10) Jesus was willing to leave his Father and his home in heaven. (Philippians 2:7) Jehovah transferred Jesus from heaven to earth, and Jesus was born as a perfect human, without sin.​—Luke 1:35.


    (Matthew 20:28) Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”
    (Mark 10:45) For even the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”
    (Colossians 1:13, 14) He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.
    (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.
    (Ephesians 1:7) By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.
      May 21, 2018 3:51 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    1. Your statement "Jesus didn't take any life, he gave his life in place of all of Adam's descendants to buy back what Adam lost." summarises your understanding in just a few phrases. That's how I like it and I thank you for that.

    2. The first part of your statement that "Jesus didn't take any life, he gave his life" means that Jesus was not killed because he had killed someone. Thus his death had nothing to do with the "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life" law of retribution. Your last post implied that he had to die under that law.

    3. The next part of your statement "he gave his life in place of all of Adam's descendants to buy back what Adam lost." uses the same kind of strange almost meaningless language that the trinitarian creed uses when it talks of Jesus being "God from God" and "true God from true God".

    4. I have rephrase your statement to say, "Jesus gave his life to buy for all of Adam's descendants the right to be in the garden of Eden. A right which Adam had and which all of Adam's descendants would have inherited from Adam if Adam had not lost his right." Let me know if i have I got your understanding right by my rephrasing.



    This post was edited by CLURT at May 22, 2018 5:12 AM MDT
      May 22, 2018 5:04 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    It's in harmony with it. I can't explain every verse in the Bible to you. 

    [9 Since a perfect human life was lost, no imperfect human life could ever buy it back. (Psalm 49:7, 8) What was needed was a ransom equal in value to what was lost. This is in harmony with the principle of perfect justice found in God’s Word, which says: “Life will be for life.” (Deuteronomy 19:21) So, what would cover the value of the perfect human soul, or life, that Adam lost? Another perfect human life was the “corresponding ransom” that was required.—1 Timothy 2:6.]


    (Matthew 20:28) Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”
    (Ephesians 1:7) By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.
    (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
    (Romans 7:14) For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.
    (Psalm 49:7, 8) None of them can ever redeem a brother Or give to God a ransom for him,  8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious That it is always beyond their reach);
    (Deuteronomy 19:21) You should not feel sorry: Life will be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
    (1 Timothy 2:6) who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.
    (1 John 4:9, 10) By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him. 10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.

    (Romans 5:7, 8) For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    (Isaiah 53:12) For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many, And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty, Because he poured out his life even to death And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people, And he interceded for the transgressors.
    (1 John 4:10) The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.
      May 22, 2018 6:40 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    I take "It's in harmony with it." to mean that I have got your understanding right by saying that, "Jesus gave his life to buy for all of Adam's descendants the right to be in the garden of Eden. A right which Adam had and which all of Adam's descendants would have inherited from Adam if Adam had not lost his right." That being so, let me summarise the narrative and you tell me if I've got anything fundamentally wrong or missed out a crucial point

    1. If Adam had stayed in the Garden of Eden and had his descendants there we would not be having this discussion.

    2. Adam disobeyed an instruction from God [= he sinned] and as a result lost his right to stay in the garden of Eden.

    3. All of Adam's descendants were born outside that Garden.

    4. God regarded all of Adam's descendants as sinners because of Adam's disobedience.

    5. His descendants want to be in the Garden but God [set a price and] said they can have a right to the Garden if they sacrifice a sinless human

    6. But Adam's descendants can't do that [pay the price] because God regards even a newborn human as a sinner [see 4]

    7. However God so loved humanity [and wanted to give it the right to the Garden] that He sent his only son as a human [called Jesus] so that Adam's descendants could sacrifice him and pay the price that God had set.

    8. Adam's descendants paid the price that God had set by crucifying Jesus and God kept to His word and gave Adam's descendants the right to be in the Garden of Eden.

      May 22, 2018 9:05 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    Not sure where you get that just being removed from the garden of Eden was the punishment for Adam? Not sure where you get that Adams descendants would be put back in the Garden of Eden?
    Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden but they also died spiritually when they sinned and lost everlasting life and things started deteriorating for them eventually leading to their total death. 

    (Genesis 3:3) But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’”
      May 22, 2018 9:24 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    Thanks for that. I think I've incorporated all your comments. Let me know if I've still got anything fundamentally wrong or missed out any crucial point


    1. If Adam had stayed in the Garden of Eden and had his descendants there we would not be having this discussion.

    2. Adam disobeyed an instruction from God [= he sinned] and as a result he died spiritually, lost his right to stay in the garden of Eden, and lost a toil-less and everlasting life.

    3. All of Adam's descendants were born outside that Garden.

    4. God regarded all of Adam's descendants as sinners because of Adam's disobedience.

    5. Some of Adam's descendants want to be in the Garden but God [set a price and] said they can have a right to the Garden if they sacrifice a sinless human

    6. But none of Adam's descendants can do that [pay the price] because God regards even a newborn human as a sinner [see 4]

    7. However God so loved humanity [and wanted to give it the right to the Garden] that He sent His only son to be the sinless human sacrifice [called Jesus]

    8. Jesus was crucified and died.

    9. So all of Adam's descendants who accept the deal [= to adding their approval to the life of innocent Jesus being taken in exchange for a right to be let into the Garden] will be deemed to have paid the price set by God and will be entered into the Garden.


      May 22, 2018 11:10 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    Don't know why you are stuck on the garden of Eden? Did you now read that they were told to fill the earth?

    (Genesis 1:28) Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
    (Genesis 3:3) But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’”

    (Isaiah 43:27) Your first forefather sinned, And your own spokesmen have rebelled against me.
    (Genesis 3:17) And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life.

    (Job 14:4) Who can produce someone clean from someone unclean? No one can!
    (Psalm 51:5) Look! I was born guilty of error, And my mother conceived me in sin.
    (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
    (Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
    (Romans 6:23) For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
    (1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.
    (Matthew 20:28) Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”
      May 22, 2018 1:03 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    If you truly want to know about Christianity then ask a Christian. This is another step in that process.

    "Don't know why you are stuck on the garden of Eden?" >>> Well Genesis talks about it, but I see where you're coming from as a JW. I think it's Paradise on earth, so I'll amend accordingly. Let me know if if it's third time lucky or whether I've still got anything fundamentally wrong or missed out any crucial point

    1. If Adam had stayed in the Garden of Eden and had his descendants there we would not be having this discussion.

    2. Adam disobeyed an instruction from God [= he sinned] and as a result he died spiritually, lost his right to stay in the garden of Eden, and lost a toil-less and everlasting life.

    3. All of Adam's descendants were born outside that Garden.

    4. God regarded all of Adam's descendants as sinners because of Adam's disobedience.

    5. Some of Adam's descendants want to be in Paradise [= want to live the life of Riley that Adam had in the Garden] but God [set a price and] said they can have Paradise if they sacrifice a sinless human

    6. But none of Adam's descendants can do that [pay the price] because God regards even a newborn human as a sinner [see 4]

    7. However God so loved humanity [and wanted to give it Paradise] that He sent His only son to be the sinless human sacrifice [called Jesus]

    8. Jesus was crucified and died.

    9. So all of Adam's descendants who accept the deal [= who add their approval to the life of innocent Jesus being taken in exchange for Paradise] will be deemed to have paid the price set by God and will be entered into Paradise.
      May 22, 2018 1:51 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Close on some of that. I am not real good at summarizing. What do the scriptures say?

    If you like summarizing, see if this helps but be sure and read the cited verses. You can start from the beginning or go to whatever chapter intrigues you, if any.
    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/bh/E/2014
    n
    • Contents
       
    • CHAPTERS
       

       Is This What God Purposed?

      • 1. What Is the Truth About God?
         

      • 2. The Bible—A Book From God
         

      • 3. What Is God’s Purpose for the Earth?
         

      • 4. Who Is Jesus Christ?
         
      • 5. The Ransom—God’s Greatest Gift
         

      • 6. Where Are the Dead?
         

      • 7. Real Hope for Your Loved Ones Who Have Died
         

      • 8. What Is God’s Kingdom?
         

      • 9. Are We Living in “the Last Days”?
         

      • 10. Spirit Creatures—How They Affect Us
         

      • 11. Why Does God Allow Suffering?
         

      • 12. Living in a Way That Pleases God
         

      • 13. A Godly View of Life
         

      • 14. How to Make Your Family Life Happy
         

      • 15. Worship That God Approves
         

      • 16. Take Your Stand for True Worship
         

      • 17. Draw Close to God in Prayer
         

      • 18. Baptism and Your Relationship With God
         

      • 19. Remain in God’s Love
    This post was edited by texasescimo at May 22, 2018 3:15 PM MDT
      May 22, 2018 3:14 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    "I am not real good at summarizing" >>> Well I like a summary first. It gives one an overview. I think if a person cannot summarise something then that person hasn't got an overall understanding of that thing.

    Our discussions are more meaningful if we have a reasonably good understanding of the whole of what we're discussing. If we start discussing parts without a good idea of the whole then we're in danger of becoming like the blind men discussing about the elephant.

     
      May 22, 2018 6:17 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    If you are sincere and want a good summary, go to the article, it summarizes very well and takes you to the scriptures.

    I think the scriptures summarize everything good enough. Bible based articles help find relevant verses on the same subject. For example, just reading the Bible straight through I didn't understand the timing of the Messiah. Putting all relevant verses together, the timing was clear and spot on. But I was sincere and looked up the scriptures. Others don't even know what the two-horned ram or hairy male goat stands for.
      May 23, 2018 5:40 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    As I said above "If you truly want to know about Christianity then ask a Christian."

    Perhaps I should say a knowledgeable Christian who can explain his doctrines in a simple way to non-Christians

    You say "Others [Christians] don't even know what the two-horned ram or hairy male goat stands for." implying that your knowledge extends to such details. I am not talking about the kind of finer details which could be open to wide interpretations. I'm talking about explaining the simple fundamentals which should not be beyond you if your knowledge extends to the details you mention.

    Imagine you and I met someone and you had no literature with you, and none of us had access to the internet, and the guy asked you to describe your beliefs to him in a maximum of 12 bullet points. You say you have difficulty summarising, well I have tried to do that for you. Have a look at my last list of bullet points and see if that accurately describes the fundamental doctrines of your beliefs. It can't be difficult for a person with your knowledge to say whether any of the points is grossly wrong or whether any crucial main points are missing and need to be added.
      May 23, 2018 6:22 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    I was actually referring to you as not knowing what the two-horned ram or hairy male goat stands for when I even spoon fed you the scriptures.

    It should not matter what a claimed Christian, myself or other, says the Bible teaches, but what the Bible actually says.

    You trying to reword everything gets a bit exhausting. I am clear on what I believe, but not clear on some of what you say. I'll try

    1. If Adam had stayed in the Garden of Eden and had his descendants there we would not be having this discussion.
    Adam and his descendants would not have just stayed in the garden. 

    2. Adam disobeyed an instruction from God [= he sinned] and as a result he died spiritually, lost his right to stay in the garden of Eden, and lost a toil-less and everlasting life.
    Adams rebellion resulted in his death and the death of his offspring. They were intended to live forever on earth.

    3. All of Adam's descendants were born outside that Garden.
    Yes, I suppose it's probable that there is life where the garden was but if so it is no longer like it was.

    4. God regarded all of Adam's descendants as sinners because of Adam's disobedience.
    Inherited sin is not the same as willful sin and wickedness. Imperfection and death are the result to all.

    5. Some of Adam's descendants want to be in Paradise [= want to live the life of Riley that Adam had in the Garden] but God [set a price and] said they can have Paradise if they sacrifice a sinless human
    No. Your wording is a bit misleading. Christian was told to sacrifice a human. 

    6. But none of Adam's descendants can do that [pay the price] because God regards even a newborn human as a sinner [see 4]
    Adam was made perfect. He willfully disobeyed Jehovah. No other natural offspring of Adam is perfect. (Job 14:4)

    7. However God so loved humanity [and wanted to give it Paradise] that He sent His only son to be the sinless human sacrifice [called Jesus]
    (John 3:16) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
    (Romans 5:8) But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    8. Jesus was crucified and died.
    Crucified is not really a good translation as Jesus did not die on a two beamed cross. Stauros was originally just an upright pale or stake.

    9. So all of Adam's descendants who accept the deal [= who add their approval to the life of innocent Jesus being taken in exchange for Paradise] will be deemed to have paid the price set by God and will be entered into Paradise.
    Naturally, from an imperfect human standpoint like Peter, no one would want Jesus to die. Had he not proved faithful to death, we would not have returned to heaven and we would continue to be under sin and death.

    (Matthew 16:21-23) From that time forward, Jesus began explaining to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed, and on the third day be raised up. 22 At this Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying: “Be kind to yourself, Lord; you will not have this happen to you at all.” 23 But turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”
    (John 6:51) I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
    (Romans 6:9-11) For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time, but the life that he lives, he lives with reference to God. 11 Likewise you, consider yourselves to be dead with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.
    (John 14:1) “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me.
    (Romans 10:9, 10) For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.
    (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10) This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.


    Christians do not consider the blood of Christ to be of just ordinary value. They to are willing and have given their lives in behalf of each other. Firm belief in the resurrection and the love of Jesus made that possible.

    (Hebrews 10:26-31) For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. 29 How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    (John 15:12, 13) This is my commandment, that you love one another just as I have loved you. 13 No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends.
    (1 John 3:16) By this we have come to know love, because that one surrendered his life for us, and we are under obligation to surrender our lives for our brothers.
    (John 13:15) For I set the pattern for you, that just as I did to you, you should also do.
    (Romans 16:3, 4) Give my greetings to Prisʹca and Aqʹui·la, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who have risked their own necks for me and to whom not only I but also all the congregations of the nations give thanks.
      May 23, 2018 7:18 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    "It should not matter what a claimed Christian, myself or other, says the Bible teaches, but what the Bible actually says." >>> that's good, but the trouble is the Bible actually says very different things to different people. If this discussion manages to stay friendly I might get to show you how it actually says different things to me. Anyway, in case we don't get there, we know that the same 66 book Protestant Bible says fundamentally different things to different Protestants. To most Protestants the Bible actually says that God is a Trinity whereas to you and one or two other sects it actually does not. Whereas to almost all of you the Bible actually says that Jesus is the only literal son of God to you the Bible also actually says that he is the archangel Michael whereas to the others the Bible most definitely actually does not.

    Anyway "I am clear on what I believe" is an excellent statement to hold on to. Compare all the bullet points below against that. I have revised the bullet points to incorporate your comments. However, I have not included scripture quotations because we are to assume that we do not have any literature with us or access to the internet.

    1. Adam started life as a perfect [= sinless] man in the Garden of Eden [which was located somewhere on earth] and he and his offspring were intended to live a toil-less and everlasting life forever on the whole of the earth.  

    2. Adam disobeyed an instruction from God [= he sinned] and as a result he lost the two privileges, of a toil-less life and an everlasting life. His offspring were born without those two privileges too.

    3. The Garden of Eden is still on earth but is no longer like it was.

    4. God regarded all of Adam's descendants as sinners because of Adam's disobedience. Although inherited sin is not the same as willful sin and wickedness it is nevertheless a sin [imperfection] and results in loss of the privileges of a toil-less and everlasting life.

    5. Some of Adam's descendants want to be in Paradise [= want to live the life of Riley that Adam had in the Garden] but God [set a price and] said they can have Paradise if they sacrifice a sinless human
    I'm not sure what to do here because although you say  No. Your wording is a bit misleading. you add  Christian was told to sacrifice a human. 

    6. But none of Adam's descendants can do that [pay the price] because God regards even a newborn human as a sinner [= imperfect. See 4]

    7. However, God so loved humanity [and wanted to give it Paradise] that He sent His only begotten son to be the sinless human sacrifice [called Jesus]

    8. Jesus was hung on a stake and died.

    9. So all of Adam's descendants who accept the deal [= who add their approval to the life of innocent Jesus being taken in exchange for Paradise] will be deemed to have paid the price set by God and will be entered into Paradise.

      May 23, 2018 9:43 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    Sorry, No Charistian was ever told to sacrifice a human.  
    I didn't say toil-less. He was given satisfying work to do. All this rewording is a bit tedious as you add some stuff that may mean one thing to you that may mean something else to me. Like not sure of your use of toil-less as possibly in the strictest sense in just lay around and make babies?

    Not sure why you can't just read the scriptures and either agree or disagree?

    I gotta go for now, may read it later and them edit, but did a quick scan.
      May 23, 2018 10:27 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    1. "Sorry, No Charistian was ever told to sacrifice a human." >>> that's fine. How then did God communicate to humans the price He had set?

    2. "I didn't say toil-less. He was given satisfying work to do." >>> toil means struggle and hard work. So a toil-less life means a life without struggle or hard work. I thought it was only after he was expelled from the Garden that he had to struggle for his living.

    3. "... as you add some stuff that may mean one thing to you that may mean something else to me." >>> I'm trying to capture what it means to you

    4. "Not sure why you can't just read the scriptures and either agree or disagree?" >>> When I read the passages I like in the scripture I agree with it. I never disagree with my favourite passages in the scripture.




    This post was edited by CLURT at May 23, 2018 11:22 AM MDT
      May 23, 2018 11:02 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    1.God communicated to men through the Bible. Through inspiration of God's spirit, or his finger. 
    2. I am sure that after Adam lost Jehovah's blessing, things got harder for him but he already had work to do. As far as how hard that work was, I leave that up to your speculation.
    3. You wan't to know what the word toil-less means to me, why?
    4. Unfortunately, I've noticed your habit of cherry picking verses out of context and giving them a forced meaning on numerous occasions. That is a sign of your preconceived ideas of which you deny having when reading the Bible.
      May 24, 2018 1:17 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    okay, so are you happy that my bullet points correctly summarise your understanding of the main points of your belief, or are you not clear enough about your belief to say how close or far my summary is?
      May 24, 2018 3:02 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Probably not all of your bullet points as your last 4 bullet points are just your general comments and one question to me. The comment before that, I never completed reading as I was going to read and edit my post when I had time but you made another post so I responded to that instead.

    I know your questions and rewording what the Bible says and what I say are likely a way for you to try to somehow trap me in my speech.
      May 24, 2018 4:24 PM MDT
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