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Jesus saved souls. What else might He have saved?

Posted - April 10, 2018
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  • 23641
    :) Yeah.
    OK

    I just like thinking about him being at an age other than 30-something.
    :)
    I find calculus math more confusing than all that.
    In any case, I like how you wrote your comment above - - well-written.

    And, oh, I'm a living contradiction of all kinds, too. I don't get me at all. Ha! Neither does anyone else, I sometimes wonder.

      May 14, 2018 12:56 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    ha ha ha. "I don't get me at all." will have quite a few shrinks scratching their heads.

    As for "I just like thinking about him being at an age other than 30-something." think about when the Gospels say he was circumcised - the snipped off bit of immortal God must be in someone's possession, but they're not letting on.
      May 14, 2018 1:10 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    Q "Jesus saved souls. What else might He have saved?"
    ==========================================


    He might have saved the widespread misconception that he taught Christianity. The Biblical facts are that he was a Rabbi who was circumcised according to the Mosaic law. He preached in synagogues and used the then books of the Old Testament as his scripture. He never heard of Christianity or taught about the original sin, the trinity, the insistence of God that there is no salvation unless a sinless man is sacrificed.
      May 14, 2018 12:18 PM MDT
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  • 5835
    Jesus knew NOTHING of Christianity!

    Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    Jesus didn't know the divine mystery. If Jesus had been God, John 4:22 would have been a lie, and God can not lie.

    John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
      May 14, 2018 11:12 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    and Ephesians 3:5 is presumably attributable to Paul and not Jesus
      May 15, 2018 6:36 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    Yet Jesus taught that God's word was truth. Jesus was not the first or only prophet mentioned in the Bible.

    (John 17:17) Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.
    (Genesis 3:3) But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’”
    (Genesis 3:14-20) Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.” 16 To the woman he said: “I will greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in pain you will give birth to children, and your longing will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.” 17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” 20 After this Adam named his wife Eve, because she was to become the mother of everyone living.
    (Genesis 4:1) Now Adam had sexual relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant. When she gave birth to Cain, she said: “I have produced a male child with the help of Jehovah.”
    (Job 14:4) Who can produce someone clean from someone unclean? No one can!
    (Genesis 5:3) Adam lived for 130 years and then became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and he named him Seth.
    (Isaiah 43:27) Your first forefather sinned, And your own spokesmen have rebelled against me.
    (Ecclesiastes 7:20) For there is no righteous man on earth who always does good and never sins.
    (2 Chronicles 6:36) “If they sin against you (for there is no man who does not sin), and you are furious with them and you abandon them to an enemy, and their captors carry them off captive to a land, far or near,
    (Psalm 51:5) Look! I was born guilty of error, And my mother conceived me in sin.
    (Romans 3:23, 24) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.
    (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
    (1 John 1:8) If we make the statement, “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.

    (Deuteronomy 32:4, 5) The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he.  5 They are the ones who have acted corruptly. They are not his children, the defect is their own. They are a crooked and twisted generation!



    Of course Christianity did not exist before the followers of Christ. The Bible is not going to satisfy your preconceived ideas or forced timelines. 

    (Daniel 9:24-27) “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”

    (Acts 11:26) After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.
      May 15, 2018 7:01 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    Since "Jesus knew NOTHING of Christianity!" is an assertion by Jewels Vern I leave you to address your comments to him as he is a fellow believer in the Bible.
      May 15, 2018 7:25 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    If I was addressing that, I would have but obviously I was addressing your tripe of:

    Q "Jesus saved souls. What else might He have saved?"
    ==========================================


    He might have saved the widespread misconception that he taught Christianity. The Biblical facts are that he was a Rabbi who was circumcised according to the Mosaic law. He preached in synagogues and used the then books of the Old Testament as his scripture. He never heard of Christianity or taught about the original sin, the trinity, the insistence of God that there is no salvation unless a sinless man is sacrificed.
       May 14, 2018 11:18 AM

    ----------
    Of course as usual for you, more than one verse is more than you can handle, and then only if isolated out of context.
      May 17, 2018 2:52 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    I leave personal judgement to you.

    I'm interested on comments relevant to my post.
      May 17, 2018 2:52 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    And you totally ignored my very relevant post because you cannot handle the truth.

    Perhaps you can follow if I post your comment and then mine in the same comment?

    CLURT:
    Q "Jesus saved souls. What else might He have saved?"
    ==========================================


    He might have saved the widespread misconception that he taught Christianity. The Biblical facts are that he was a Rabbi who was circumcised according to the Mosaic law. He preached in synagogues and used the then books of the Old Testament as his scripture. He never heard of Christianity or taught about the original sin, the trinity, the insistence of God that there is no salvation unless a sinless man is sacrificed.
       May 14, 2018 11:18 AM


    texasescimo to CLURT:
    et Jesus taught that God's word was truth. Jesus was not the first or only prophet mentioned in the Bible.

    (John 17:17) Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.
    (Genesis 3:3) But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’”
    (Genesis 3:14-20) Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.” 16 To the woman he said: “I will greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in pain you will give birth to children, and your longing will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.” 17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” 20 After this Adam named his wife Eve, because she was to become the mother of everyone living.
    (Genesis 4:1) Now Adam had sexual relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant. When she gave birth to Cain, she said: “I have produced a male child with the help of Jehovah.”
    (Job 14:4) Who can produce someone clean from someone unclean? No one can!
    (Genesis 5:3) Adam lived for 130 years and then became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and he named him Seth.
    (Isaiah 43:27) Your first forefather sinned, And your own spokesmen have rebelled against me.
    (Ecclesiastes 7:20) For there is no righteous man on earth who always does good and never sins.
    (2 Chronicles 6:36) “If they sin against you (for there is no man who does not sin), and you are furious with them and you abandon them to an enemy, and their captors carry them off captive to a land, far or near,
    (Psalm 51:5) Look! I was born guilty of error, And my mother conceived me in sin.
    (Romans 3:23, 24) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.
    (Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
    (1 John 1:8) If we make the statement, “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.

    (Deuteronomy 32:4, 5) The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he.  5 They are the ones who have acted corruptly. They are not his children, the defect is their own. They are a crooked and twisted generation!



    Of course Christianity did not exist before the followers of Christ. The Bible is not going to satisfy your preconceived ideas or forced timelines. 

    (Daniel 9:24-27) “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”

    (Acts 11:26) After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.
     
      May 17, 2018 4:32 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    Sorry, I know it can be difficult to understand it, but I'm not impressed by mountains of scripture. 

    If you want to quote scripture in response to one of my points then quote the point and then quote the most relevant Biblical verse in response.
      May 17, 2018 7:41 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Sorry, I know it can be difficult to understand it, but I'm not impressed by your isolating verses out of context when there are mountains of scripture giving the context.


    So first it's "I'm interested on comments relevant to my post."
    Now it's "I'm not impressed by mountains of scripture."

    Your problem is that with the Bible, when taking in to account the context, situation and timing, is a congruent book, unlike your Quran which constantly contradicts itself with no agreement by its followers as to which verses abrogate which. 


    'No compulsion in religion'
    ' fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).'
    ' Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued'

    [In the Quran itself we find admission of such contradictions in that it claims for itself the right of “cancellation” or “abrogation.” Muhammad’s critics had complained that he sometimes contradicted himself, and so he taught that whenever a subsequent revelation contradicted a previous one, the second canceled or abrogated the first. Thus we read, “None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or the like. Knowest thou not that God hath power for all things?”—Sura 2:106; 16:101, Ali.]
      May 18, 2018 1:06 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    If you want to convince me then you have to have the evidence I'm seeking.

    Posting stuff that makes you feel better doesn't convince or interest me.
      May 18, 2018 11:04 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    You are not seeking evidence as if you have an open mind, you reject most of the Bible because it conflicts with the Quran.
    Can't convince a goat he's a sheep, can you?
    Sure can't convince anyone that Jesus thought God's word was truth when they won't read the scriptures. 
      May 18, 2018 1:51 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    I have never argued the Quran against the Bible in our discussions which have been many indeed. You're saying that just to make yourself feel better. 
      May 18, 2018 3:00 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    It don't take a rocket scientist to see that all of your objections against the Bible are the same as other Muslims rejecting. Coincidence? Don't think so. 

    You avoid discussing the Quran for the most part. (Glass house)
    Most of your conversations on here are about the Bible and how Christians don't get their doctrines from the Bible or when the Bible does say something, Jesus himself didn't say it or when Jesus did say something, you then question the timing. All of your arguments against the Bible and Paul line up with Islamic teachings. 
      May 18, 2018 4:06 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    1. It don't take a rocket scientist to see that you can discuss the Qur'an till the cows come home, it ain't going to give us the Biblical evidence I am asking you for.

    2. I don't see why, if I was an atheist, I wouldn't seek the clarifications that I do. I don't see how those questions can only come from a Muslim? 
      May 18, 2018 6:52 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Atheist don't say that Jesus was a prophet but didn't really die, do they?
    Atheist don't say that we are all under the Mosaic law, do they?
    Atheist don't ask for evidence from the Bible as if they would accept what it says and then reject it, do they?
    Atheist don't in one breath claim that we should not miss a jot or tittle of the Mosaic Law and then claim that there are many aspects of the Mosaic law that the HQ, as handed down by Mohammed, does not have, for example the strict observance of the Sabbath and dietary laws that Jews were subject to, do they?

    Sounds Islamic to me.


    What does this mean to you?
    (Matthew 26:28) for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.
      May 18, 2018 11:49 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    "Atheist don't say that Jesus was a prophet but didn't really die, do they?" >>> The Bible says that Jesus was a prophet and it is easy to argue from the Bible that Jesus didn't really die.

    "Atheist don't say that we are all under the Mosaic law, do they?" neither does the Bible nor the Qur'an

    "Atheist don't ask for evidence from the Bible as if they would accept what it says and then reject it, do they?" >>> Nothing to stop an atheist asking you to justify your claim from your own scripture, if he knows it's not even in your own scripture

    "Atheist don't in one breath claim that we should not miss a jot or tittle of the Mosaic Law and then claim that there are many aspects of the Mosaic law that the HQ, as handed down by Mohammed, does not have, for example the strict observance of the Sabbath and dietary laws that Jews were subject to, do they?" >>> and where did I present such an argument?

    "What does this mean to you?
    (Matthew 26:28) for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins." >>>> it means ambiguity and contradiction. It's a very strange way of teaching the whole Christian doctrine of original sin, of a God that must have a sinless human sacrifice, of how humans can never produce such a sacrifice even by killing a newborn baby, how God has to have a begotten son who by some mysterious process changes into a human being [you might as well as turn a goat into a human being] It's a strange way of announcing that your mission was to come and die for the sins of humanity when you've spent nearly three years going around and not even giving a hint of it. Almost like deceiving your followers. 
      May 19, 2018 11:17 AM MDT
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  • 2657

    1 Can you post a link to a thread where an atheist acknowledged Jesus as a prophet but claimed Jesus didn't really die?
    (Daniel 9:26) “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.

    (John 19:30) When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said: “It has been accomplished!” and bowing his head, he gave up his spirit.
    (Matthew 20:28) Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”

    (Mark 10:45) For even the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”
    (Matthew 26:28) for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.
    (Luke 22:19, 20) Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body, which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, he did the same with the cup after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf

     

    (Isaiah 53:12) For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many, And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty, Because he poured out his life even to death And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people, And he interceded for the transgressors.
    (Matthew 27:50) Again Jesus called out with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
    (Mark 15:37) But Jesus let out a loud cry and expired.
    (Luke 23:46) And Jesus called out with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” After he said this, he expired.


    2 Yet you claim: "There are many aspects of the Mosaic law that the HQ, as handed down by Mohammed, does not have, for example the strict observance of the Sabbath and dietary laws that Jews were subject to."
    You also claim: "Far from abandoning the Law Jesus has tightened it up considerably"

    https://answermug.com/forums/topic/45547/why-don-t-jews-accept-jesus-as-lord/view/post_id/409087

    " Jesus carries emphasising the same thing, "for I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the law until everything is accomplished." Further along, in Matthew 5:19, Jesus warned, “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven” There are other verses in which Jesus upholds the law of God, explains them and teaches his followers to observe them. There is nowhere where Jesus discourages any of his followers from following the law at any time."

     

    3 Atheist do not pretend that they would accept something from the Bible just because it is in there. Can you post a link to where one did?

     

    4 Several times you have said something like that. Do you reject it now?

     

    5 Because you reword what the Bible says and reject the very many verses throughout the Bible that shows that the law required life for life.

      May 19, 2018 1:23 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    I give up

    It's not about the atheist acknowledging Jesus as a prophet. It's about the Bible calling him a prophet. You don't have to follow any religion to see that the Bible calls Jesus a prophet. You don't have to follow any religion to see that it is possible to argue from the Bible that Jesus did not die.

    edit:

    I forgot about your point 5

    So now Jesus died because "the Bible ...shows that the law required life for life." not as the ultimate sin sacrifice. So which life was Jesus responsible for taking for him to have to give his life in return?


    This post was edited by CLURT at May 19, 2018 2:47 PM MDT
      May 19, 2018 1:52 PM MDT
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  • 2657
    Detour? Just post links to where anyone besides a Muslim has made the taunts you have.

    What sin did Bulls, Rams, Goats, fine flour, etc commit to have to be sacrificed? 
      May 19, 2018 7:32 PM MDT
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  • 1393
    1. Show me the logic by which you conclude that only a Muslim can see that Jesus is called a prophet in the Bible and that even he {Jesus] refers to himself as a prophet.

    2 "What sin did Bulls, Rams, Goats, fine flour, etc commit to have to be sacrificed?" >>>> I don't know. With your beliefs anything is possible. 
    You implied that the life of Jesus was taken, not as the ultimate sin sacrifice, but because "the Bible ...shows that the law required life for life." So I simply asked which life was Jesus responsible for taking for him to have to give his own life in return?

      May 20, 2018 5:47 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    Another snarky jab, eh?  "With your beliefs anything is possible."
    Remain calm, we will talk about the Quran and your beliefs in other threads, perhaps here too if you like?

    You sure like taking things out of context, don't you. 

    Notice what I actually said:
    "Atheist don't say that Jesus was a prophet but didn't really die, do they?"

    You believe Jesus was a prophet and didn't really die.
    Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet and didn't really die. 
    Atheist don't believe Jesus was a prophet. Atheist who have read the Bible without influence believe the Bible teaches that Jesus was a prophet and that the Bible teaches that Jesus died for our sins. Not that they believe it, but that the Bible says it.


    Quote: [2 "What sin did Bulls, Rams, Goats, fine flour, etc commit to have to be sacrificed?" >>>> I don't know. ]
    I was hoping you would read the relevant verses in our other thread that I hand fed you but as your sincerity is lacking, you still don't know.

      May 20, 2018 6:00 AM MDT
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  • 1393
    1. "Another snarky jab, eh?  "With your beliefs anything is possible."" >>> if that's snarky then a lot of Christians are very often snarky because the phrase "with God anything is possible" is very common response when they don't have a reasonable explanation.

    2. "Remain calm, we will talk about the Quran and your beliefs in other threads, perhaps here too if you like?" can only be meant as a threat. The only reason you regard it as a threat is because you are projecting your mind set onto me. FYI whereas you might regard yourself as a guardian of Christianity and the Bible I do not regard myself as a guardian of either Islam or the HQ. You filling your posts with what you regard as krap is far from any threat to me. It's just a sign of your frustration at not being able to answer simple questions about your beliefs.

    3. " the Bible says it." >>> Indeed. And if the Bible says it then it's there for anybody interested to read it and ask about it, no matter what their religion. All they need is interest.

    4. You need to clarify why Jesus died. Did he die for the sins of mankind because forgiveness of sins must have shedding of blood, or did he die because of the law of a life for a life?
      May 20, 2018 7:14 AM MDT
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