Doubt all you want. It won’t change what I intend to do nor will it change what I gain pleasure from. Don’t act as if killing is really all that big a feat. Many have done it, and many will continue to do so.
I believe in Love, Grace, Mercy, Understanding and Forgiveness. I believe in the absolute sanctity of life. I seek not to exact revenge upon others, but rather choose to "turn the other cheek" and do unto others as I would have done unto me. Every single thing about who I am and what I am from my faith which resides in my spirit, to the thoughts that are borne of my mind, and the feelings that overflow from my heart encourage me not to satisfy my own ideas of justice but rather extend the hand of compassion to all and leave the rest to God.
"Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord." (Romans chapter 12 verse 19)
I don't think most violent criminals give any thought to the consequences of their actions. It's just not realistic that a civilized government would or should have the time or resources to dream up punishments that match crimes. We should incarcerate and rehabilitate the "bad guys" .. not try to get revenge.
That is absolutely untrue that they have not thought of the consequences of their actions. They may have not cared about them, or believed they would get away with it, but they knew what they were doing. Either way, their actions have been done and there is absolutely no reason to give them compassion if they could not give the same to their victims.
In some cases, yes. A recent event here in NYC was a police officer and his girlfriend left his 8-year old autistic son in a freezing garage as punishment for some infraction and the boy died. Facts were later elicited that more than 20 calls to the authorities by neighbors, the school and by the boy's mother went nowhere. The other children were likely similarly treated, came to school with dirty (sometimes urine soaked) clothing, hungry and not bathed. My personal belief is that nothing was done because the father was a police officer. In a case such as this, I would have no compunction about leaving the man and his girlfriend in a cold garage to freeze to death.
An After-My-Original-Answer-Post Addition: I'll keep my original answer underneath, but I forgot to be more clear- - I meant to say I 'enjoyed'/whatever, reading everyone's answers. And, though I may not agree with some of the thoughts, I respect and 'get' where people are coming from. Yet, to be blunt, for my answer, I'm more along the thoughts of Boom Boom Twinkle in his answer. My original post follows (as if anyone is reading my answer at this point, ha!)
As much as I 'get' the points of many answers here, I can't get beyond the obvious message --
"Let's torture the hell out these violent criminals to show the rest of humanity that violently torturing people is wrong" (I realize some people don't think violently torturing people is wrong)
It's then a close step to another concept I don't get beyond, capital punishment --
"We're going to kill these murderers to show everyone that killing people is wrong"
This post was edited by WelbyQuentin at February 5, 2020 12:00 PM MST
In my opinion, it is not the killing or violence itself that is inherently wrong, but rather the fact that it was carried out on an innocent person or possibly multiple innocents. While I, myself, have fantasies of doing such a thing, it's still obviously a vicious crime. Once someone has made a choice to not value the lives of their victims, why should their life be of any value? You will never be able to bring back the victims, but at least that person can experience first hand what they dealt on others. It may not teach them anything, but it will give them a taste of their own medicine and help pay the debt they created.
Yeah, like I said, I understand and respect your thoughts on it. And you've expressed it really well here in your comment to me. :) And, really, in many ways, I am with you on it. Your points are valid to me, too. (I do believe in most cases that killing and violence are wrong, though.)
Yet, for me, for the law system to just approach the punishment, in this case, retaliation, in a "you did it to innocent people, we're doing the same to you"-type of procedure is simply resorting to the same criminal behavior, stooping to a lower base of behavior. Consciously killing (or whatever the crime was) all over again. Somehow, to me, it's just repeating the same crime over again. It then all becomes legal to do anything upon anyone.
Yet, I know, I may not make much sense in the long run.
Oh, and how you expressed your thoughts on it, I forgot to mention I respect others' similar thoughts in the thread. And I also respect others' thoughts that are along the same lines of thought as mine. :)
I plan on adding another thought in my original answer to help clarify what I forgot to mention in my original answer.
There was an image in a UK newspaper the other day which showed a dog being BBQ while alive. They described the whimpering and crying which was more than I could handle. I had an image of putting the mans hand on the BBQ to help him relate to what he was doing and maybe awaken some sort of feeling inside him. The dog is in Cambodia. They also said that dogs a drowned in mass then the Caracas is hung out for sale at the market. The only way I see to fight that is through public information methods and a few other things I thought about. I’m here and they are there, not much I can really do at this time.
There was an image in a UK newspaper the other day which showed a dog being BBQ while alive. They described the whimpering and crying which was more than I could handle. I had an image of putting the mans hand on the BBQ to help him relate to what he was doing and maybe awaken some sort of feeling inside him. The dog is in Cambodia. They also said that dogs a drowned in mass then the Caracas is hung out for sale at the market. The only way I see to fight that is through public information methods and a few other things I thought about. I’m here and they are there, not much I can really do at this time.
You punish people to stop crime not to exact revenge.
You don't turn into what you are punishing.
That is your justice and it is no justice at all. If you have to stoop to the level of the crime to punish the criminal? What does that make you? A legal one?
It’s not about morals or “sinking” to anyone’s level. Actions themselves have no inherent moral value. They are simply actions. When someone does something that causes net pain for others, it is only fair to have them pay off that debt in the same manner.
This post was edited by Lady Ondine at February 6, 2020 8:41 AM MST
Seems to me if actions have no moral value, then saying other actions "are only fair" cannot be true. If actions are not right or wrong, than they can't be declared fair, either.
To me, it is indeed sinking to wrong levels.
So, I guess we humans get rid of any and all kinds of laws, principles or any sense of order or rules to coexist with fellow humans. Anything goes.
Fairness just means ”evenness“ or ”tit for tat.” Fairness can refer to any action, whether it hurts people or not. Of course humans will regard getting harmed as a bad thing and this is generally agreed upon—but the action itself does not carry any inherent moral weight, it is humans who give it meaning through our dislike of those actions. Thus, torturing or killing someone is wrong in the context of human society deciding it is wrong to kill an innocent. But that does not make those actions inherently wrong when it is used for the sake of justice.
And I don't necessarily think your train of thought is any more inherently "un-wrong."
I believe to lower one's self to the same behavior as criminals is wrong -- I don't care what reasons one says to justify criminal behavior. And for the sake of so-called "justice," I don't buy it. Retribution and revenge are not justice to me. If it is justice, than, to me, we're ,as a society, back to "Anything goes! it's all good! Go out and do whatever you want! there are no rules.'
Reminds me of that song that song from "Oklahoma!"- - "Anything you can do, I can do better!" I don't mean you and me saying that to each other - - I mean in general about what we're talked about. :)
But if you know that you will never experience the same pain as your victims, what is to stop you from just living out your torture fantasies without restraint? Prison may be a deterrent, but I think knowing that I would be tortured in the same way my victims were would be far more frightening. And if it doesn’t scare the ones who do it, then that is on them. Not only that, it would give a legal torture outlet.
Don Barzini 