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Kittigate

Bible story writers were inspired to relate the story of creation; who did God inspire to develop concept of Intelligent Design?

Posted - March 3, 2018
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  • 5391
    Jewels, if it makes you happy to think this way, then good on you, mate.
    Carved into rocks, is it? Tribal hearsay? So it surely must be true.

    You have set the bar of credibility really low. 


    This post was edited by Don Barzini at March 6, 2018 6:16 AM MST
      March 6, 2018 4:40 AM MST
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  • 2657
    I've looked at this question a couple of times this morning trying to make sense of it as I was thinking that the Bible reveals a God that is an intelligent designer. Then I did a search and found that some proponents of 'intelligent design' try to avoid the use of God or to quote: are “careful not to bring God into the discussion.”

    Article from 2007:
    [Design Without a Designer?
    ALMOST 150 years have passed since Charles Darwin proposed that natural selection explains life’s complexity and diversity. However, his theory of evolution and its modern variations have recently come under attack from those who believe that the marvelously fine-tuned architecture of living organisms indicates purposeful design. Even a number of scientists with solid credentials do not accept the idea that evolution accounts for the array of species we see on earth.
    Some such scientists offer a counterargument—known as intelligent design, or ID—asserting that design in creation is firmly supported by biology, mathematics, and common sense. They seek to include discussion of this idea in the science curriculum in schools. The so-called evolution wars are raging mainly in the United States, but similar trends are reported in England, the Netherlands, Pakistan, Serbia, and Turkey.
    A Puzzling Omission
    There is usually, however, a conspicuous omission in the carefully worded defense of intelligent design. That is the absence of reference to a designer. Do you believe that design is conceivable without a designer? Advocates of intelligent design “make no explicit claims about who or what this designer might be,” reported The New York Times Magazine. Writer Claudia Wallis stated that intelligent design proponents are “careful not to bring God into the discussion.” And Newsweek magazine commented that “I.D. has nothing to say on the existence and identity of the designer.”
    You can appreciate, though, that it is futile to try to evade the question of the designer. How could the explanation involving design in the universe and of life itself be complete if the existence and identity of the designer were concealed or not even considered?
    To an extent, the debate on whether to invoke a designer or not revolves around these questions: Would accepting the existence of a superhuman designer hamper scientific and intellectual progress? Is an intelligent designer called for only when no other explanation is offered? And does it really make sense to infer from the design that there is a designer? The following article will discuss these and related questions.
    [Pictures on page 3]
    Charles Darwin believed that natural selection explained life’s complexity
    [Credit Line]
    Darwin: From a photograph by Mrs. J. M. Cameron/U.S. National Archives photo]



      March 4, 2018 7:43 AM MST
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  • 5354

    The below link lead to a summation of the arguments of both sides in the
    Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District
    It was collected by the plaintifs in the case and their lawyers so expect a bit of bias and feel free to present actual evidence of that bias, where you see it. You have quoted the watchtower and other JW writings at me often enough, please read the arguments (on both sides) and consider the differences. I would have liked to include the judges summation where he tell why he feels confident in stating that ID is not science but is Creationism warmed over with a different shade of lipstick. Alas I could not find it today, so I hope someone else will help with that.

    This post was edited by JakobA the unAmerican. at March 4, 2018 12:01 PM MST
      March 4, 2018 11:38 AM MST
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  • 2657
     JW's have no part in trying to influence school politics and such other than trying to keep their children from being persecuted as has happened so often in the past.
    Can't likely say either side is correct in your cited case anyway as both sides are likely wrong on issues.

    Note the reason for my post was due to my misunderstanding:
    I've looked at this question a couple of times this morning trying to make sense of it as I was thinking that the Bible reveals a God that is an intelligent designer. Then I did a search and found that some proponents of 'intelligent design' try to avoid the use of God or to quote: are “careful not to bring God into the discussion.”


    Tried to click on your link anyway but it didn't work.
      March 4, 2018 11:58 AM MST
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  • 5391
    I think you discerned the stumble in the question, one that is easily understandable, given that certain parties of faith have embraced ID theory as a viable counterpoint to Darwinian biology, and are prominent in their support.

    That said, design requires a designer; ID theory, absent theistic dogma, has a large void to fill in its premise. 
      March 4, 2018 12:13 PM MST
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  • 5354
    Yes, it dont work for me either, it is the usual think with AM insisting every link must be using https: protocol. Just remove the incorrect 's'  in your adress line.

    I know Behe tried to make that point as an expert-witness in the trial, claiming that ID had nothing to do with Religion. It fell flat for several reasons, one of them being that the scool had already received textbooks the new ID class. "Of men and Pandas" a reprint of a well known Creationist book which had been reprinted with the word 'God' replaced by 'The Intelligent Designer'.
      March 4, 2018 12:26 PM MST
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  • 13395
    Well I can believe and understand what Buddha says:"consciousness exists in the stone" meaning consciousness exists in every single particle of the universe. I consider this concept as in constructing the molecule that enables life to begin; 'consciousness' guiding every particle into its proper position (rather than random chance) whereas the ID proponent would claim some intelligent being must be required to do that or the creationist might say since God created.. then every particle would then be guided by  '(God) spirituality' force instead of nature/naturally existing consciousness. 

    Intelligence requires a mind -whose mind? -in the case if an Intelligent Designer exists at all.
      March 4, 2018 12:26 PM MST
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  • 5835
    Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
      March 4, 2018 1:25 PM MST
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  • 13395
    Hmm..?
      March 4, 2018 4:06 PM MST
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  • 5354
    It is impossible to be a heretic if you were never a member of the congregation. Strangers and those who were never in the congregation can at most be infidels (people who dont believe). That distinction was quite important during the Spanish Inqisition. Moslems were treated much better than the Jews.
      March 5, 2018 2:20 AM MST
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  • 7280
    So Jews were considered Catholic at the time of the Inquisition?
      March 5, 2018 1:44 PM MST
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  • 5354
    Actually yes. First came the forced convertion, Then all the jews that 'backslid' were massacreed.
      March 5, 2018 7:18 PM MST
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  • 7280
    Once again, categorization becomes a problem for those so assigned.
      March 6, 2018 1:52 PM MST
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  • 492
    Actually, the Intelligent Design, in our nature, inspired writers to develop the concept of a god or gods.
    Religions are all man made, prophets are self delegated or assigned by some one else. It's human nature to feel appreciation and many types and forms of worship have been formed to show appreciation to something or some one they can not understand for a creation that humankind are still searching for.
    Even our own man made establishment of science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of creation. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.

     

      March 4, 2018 5:17 PM MST
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  • 7280
    One purpose of the Genesis myth seems to be to make it clear that God is the creator of man.

    Whether at sometime now or in the future we can definitively say that God created the first man and woman immediately or whether he created something that would eventually be able to be infused with an immortal soul and Genesis tells the story of that infusion (without explaining it in a way that makes obvious sense for our coffee table discussions) is yet to be determined.

    "Jesus loves me---this I know---because the bible tells me so" is theologically accurate---and true.

    "God is the creator of man" is also accurate and true.

    We just don't know the details---which is what well all argue about.  And that's not necessarily a bad thing.
      March 5, 2018 1:56 PM MST
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  • 2657
    Genesis myth? Perhaps it is your misunderstanding that makes you feel at odds with Jesus over the Genesis account as he didn't consider it a myth.

    (Matthew 19:1-6) When Jesus had finished speaking these things, he departed from Galʹi·lee and came to the borders of Ju·deʹa across the Jordan. 2 Also, large crowds followed him, and he cured them there. 3 And Pharisees came to him intent on testing him, and they asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of grounds?” 4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”
      March 7, 2018 6:49 AM MST
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  • 46117
    Obviously anyone who thought they came up with the concept their own selves is deluded. 

    The only one that can create out of nothing is God.

    Therefore, anyone who tries to define it, is fine to give it a go.  I can define it.  I am not about to tell you I can master intelligent design. 

    That's just downright goofy.  The only one that would even try and boast that he could do it is TRUMP.

    He is one of those fools that thinks because he thinks he is intelligent, that automatically others do as well.



      March 5, 2018 10:50 PM MST
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  • 1393
    Q "Bible story writers were inspired to relate the story of creation; who did God inspire to develop concept of Intelligent Design?"



    You just stated that "Bible story writers were inspired to relate the story of creation" without saying who inspired the Bible story writers to relate the story of creation. If you meant God, and if God is omniscient, and if what we know about creation and its sequence is correct, then we have a discrepancy between the Bible's story of creation and what we know so far about creation. One explanation of the discrepancy is that the scribes, not understanding the inspired creation story, changed it to what they thought the creation story should say.

    If complexity of a design is an indication of intelligence behind the design then all those who have an appreciation of the complexity of the Design will have an appreciation of the concept of Intelligent Design.
      March 10, 2018 11:13 AM MST
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  • 2657
    Quote: " One explanation of the discrepancy is that the scribes, not understanding the inspired creation story, changed it to what they thought the creation story should say."

    Another jab at the Bible? Could it be your misunderstanding of Genesis and perhaps some of the symbolism therein? 
    Perhaps you would be more qualified to answer questions about the Quran and Islam?
      March 10, 2018 6:01 PM MST
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  • 1393
    erm on the subject of scribes changing Biblical texts to what they thought the text should be saying please don't lash out at me, do so at the Bible scholars themselves. Here are just a few examples from the NT

    1. Scribes added the story of the adulteress to the Bible because they thought what happened in it was the sort of thing that Jesus would have done. I rather liked the story. You'll find that many scholars are agreed that this story was a result of scribes changing Biblical texts to what they thought the text should be saying

    2. Dr Daniel B. Wallace, professor of New Testament Studies says, "Ancient scribes who copied the handwritten texts of the New Testament frequently changed the text intentionally. Although unintentional changes account for the vast majority of textual corruption, intentional alterations also account for thousands of corruptions. In some cases, to be sure, it does seem that the scribes were being malicious. But these instances are few and far between. The majority of the intentional changes to the text were done by scribes who either thought that the text they were copying had errors in it ..... Scribes also were prone to clarify what they thought the text meant. Sometimes they were right, sometimes they were wrong." 

    3. Gary Cottrell in his article "Did ancient scribes deliberately change the text of the Bible?" says, "The most frequent instances of such deliberate changes are found in the gospels, and they are the result of what textual scholars refer to as “harmonization.” This involves attempts by scribes to make Jesus’s words recorded in one gospel identical to how they are recorded in another gospel."

      March 10, 2018 8:14 PM MST
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  • 2657
    We've discussed some of this before as there have been attempts but through textual criticism, errors have been weeded out.

    https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/has-the-bible-been-changed/

    Has the Bible Been Changed or Tampered With?
     
    No. A comparison of ancient manuscripts shows that the Bible is basically unchanged despite millenniums of recopying on perishable materials.

    Does this mean that mistakes in copying were never made?

    Thousands of ancient Bible manuscripts have been found. Some of these contain a number of differences, indicating that mistakes were made in copying. Most of these differences are minor and do not change the meaning of the text. However, a few significant differences have been discovered, some of which appear to be deliberate attempts made long ago to alter the Bible’s message. Consider two examples:

    1. At 1 John 5:7, some older Bible translations contain the following words: “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” However, reliable manuscripts confirm that these words were not in the original text. They were added later. *Thus, reliable modern Bible translations have excluded them.

    2. God’s personal name appears thousands of times in ancient manuscripts of the Bible. Yet, numerous Bible translations have replaced it with titles such as “Lord” or “God.”

    How can we be sure that there are not many more errors waiting to be found?

    At this point, so many manuscripts have been discovered that it is easier than ever before to detect errors. * What has a comparison of these documents revealed regarding the accuracy of the Bible today?

    • Commenting on the text of the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the “Old Testament”), scholar William H. Green stated: “It may be safely said that no other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted.”

    • Regarding the Christian Greek Scriptures, or “New Testament,” Bible scholar F. F. Bruce wrote: “The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical authors, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning.”

    • Sir Frederic Kenyon, a noted authority on Bible manuscripts, stated that one “can take the whole Bible in his hand and say without fear or hesitation that he holds in it the true Word of God, handed down without essential loss from generation to generation throughout the centuries.”

    What additional reasons are there for confidence that the Bible has been transmitted with accuracy?



    Here is another example of you trying to discredit the Bible:
    https://answermug.com/forums/topic/40418/when-someone-says-quot-oh-my-god-quot-are-they-saying-the-lord/view/post_id/369590/page/2#siteforum_post_369590



    EDIT: 
    Here's some that know the Quran has been changed and what hasn't been changed has been abrogated so much that Muslims don't know rather to give freedom of religion to non-Muslims or to terrorize them. Just saying.
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22828.0

    n
    https://carm.org/have-there-been-changes-in-the-quran









     This post was edited by texasescimo at March 10, 2018 11:08 PM MST
      March 10, 2018 10:53 PM MST
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  • 1393
    1. What I've quoted or referred to is from Christian apologetics scholars not non-Christians ex-Christians or anti-Christians

    2. I don't think what you've posted invalidates anything the Christian scholars have said. If you think they are wrong I leave you to take it up with them.

    3. If you do challenge the Christian scholars they will be wanting to know the basis and substance of your challenge. I don't think claims about any Hindu or Muslims scriptures will be considered valid argument or submission.

    4. If you join an academic discussion about the Qur'an and it's transmission be sure not to use the two references you've quoted. They are most likely to be thrown out. One contains a Christian Ministry's take on the Qur'an while the other contains views on the Qur'an by claimed ex-Muslims.
      March 11, 2018 7:52 AM MDT
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  • 2657
    If I have to accept that supposed 'Christian apologetics scholars' represent biblical Christianity in spite of the fact they neither claim me as 'a true Christian' nor I do them and Jesus made it clear that there is more than just a claim to follow him involved in following him then you have to accept that every terrorist and every Muslim posting videos on youtube saying that it is Islams mission to dominate the world and destroy the west.

    None of your post invalidate my post such as:
    [...How can we be sure that there are not many more errors waiting to be found?

    At this point, so many manuscripts have been discovered that it is easier than ever before to detect errors. * What has a comparison of these documents revealed regarding the accuracy of the Bible today?

    • Commenting on the text of the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the “Old Testament”), scholar William H. Green stated: “It may be safely said that no other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted.”

    • Regarding the Christian Greek Scriptures, or “New Testament,” Bible scholar F. F. Bruce wrote: “The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical authors, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning.”

    • Sir Frederic Kenyon, a noted authority on Bible manuscripts, stated that one “can take the whole Bible in his hand and say without fear or hesitation that he holds in it the true Word of God, handed down without essential loss from generation to generation throughout the centuries.”...]


    You're attempt at bringing Hindu scriptures in to it seems to be an attempt to allow the one casting stones to live in his glass house. Sorry, your Quran is full of contradictions and no proof that it hasn't been changed from what Muhammad supposedly said and yields no peaceful fruits. 


    You should answer the questions about Islam, Muhammad and the Quran once in a while instead of always taking jabs at the Bible.
      March 11, 2018 8:15 AM MDT
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  • 2706
      Speaking as a creationist the Bible says (God inspired man to write) "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". It then go's on to give the particulars of the six day creation. On the other hand the theory of intelligent design is simply an effort to empirically detect whether the "apparent design" in nature acknowledged by virtually all biologists is genuine design (the product of an intelligent cause) or is simply the product of an undirected process such as natural selection acting on random variations. What that tells me is that God didn't inspire anyone to develop the concept of intelligent design. Man came up with that concept God didn't. God already inspired man to write about Him creating the heavens and the earth. Why would He then inspire man to develop the concept of intelligent design?
      March 16, 2018 1:24 PM MDT
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