that's almost spooky. I can just imagine Paul, after his vision on the road to Damascus, saying to the Mosaic Jews almost exactly what you've said above. He said that the Mosaic Jews had been stupid to decide in advance that their Bible told them of a Messiah who would come to free them from the Roman laws so that they could once again live under their own Mosaic law. His argument was that they had not read it correctly. The correct reading was that the crucifixion was part of the plan which was that the Messiah would come to die for the sins of mankind including the original sin thus putting an end to sin sacrifices and the need to live under the Mosaic law which was the one that required those sin sacrifices in the first place.
Your post sounds just like that, but I'm not sure what are the things which you think people have been reading wrong all this time. Could you summarise, like I've done for Paul.
okay, so you think people have been reading things wrong all this time but you don't want to say what it is that they are reading wrong. That may be helpful to someone, but I can't see how, at the moment.
The majority of the Jews did have misunderstandings as the following bits from articles reflect:
Some variety in beliefs. It is evident that even though knowledge about the coming Messiah was common among the Jews, not all persons had the same knowledge or understanding about that one. For instance, though many knew that he would come from Bethlehem, some did not. (Mt 2:3-6; Joh 7:27) Some believed the Prophet to be separate from the Christ. (Joh 1:20, 21; 7:40, 41) Certain prophecies about the Messiah were not understood, even by Jesus’ disciples. This was particularly true about those prophecies dealing with the Messiah’s rejection, suffering, death, and resurrection. (Isa 53:3, 5, 12; Ps 16:10; Mt 16:21-23; 17:22, 23; Lu 24:21; Joh 12:34; 20:9) Yet once these things had taken place and the prophecies had been explained, his disciples and even ones who were not yet disciples began to appreciate the prophetic nature of these texts in the Hebrew Scriptures. (Lu 24:45, 46; Ac 2:5, 27, 28, 31, 36, 37; 8:30-35) Since the fact that the Messiah had to suffer and die was not recognized by most Jews, this point was stressed by early Christians when preaching to Jews.—Ac 3:18; 17:1-3; 26:21-23.
Wrong Expectations. Luke’s account indicates that many Jews were anxiously expecting the Messiah to appear at the particular time Jesus was on earth. Simeon and other Jews were “waiting for Israel’s consolation” and “Jerusalem’s deliverance” when the babe Jesus was brought to the temple. (Lu 2:25, 38) During the ministry of John the Baptizer, the people “were in expectation” about the Christ, or Messiah. (Lu 3:15) Many, though, expected the Messiah to meet their preconceived notions. The prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures showed the Messiah as coming in two different roles. One was “humble, and riding upon an ass,” whereas the other was “with the clouds of the heavens” to annihilate opposers and have all rulerships serve him. (Zec 9:9; Da 7:13) The Jews failed to appreciate the fact that these prophecies related to two distinct appearances of the Messiah, these appearances occurring at widely separated times. Jewish sources agree with Luke 2:38 that the people at that time were waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance. The Jewish Encyclopedia observes: “They yearned for the promised deliverer of the house of David, who would free them from the yoke of the hated foreign usurper, would put an end to the impious Roman rule, and would establish His own reign of peace.” (1976, Vol. VIII, p. 508) They tried to make him an earthly king. (Joh 6:15) When he would not fulfill their expectations, they rejected him. Evidently the expectation that the Messiah would be an earthly king was shared by John the Baptizer and his disciples. John knew Jesus to be the Messiah and the Son of God, having seen him anointed with holy spirit and having heard God’s voice of approval. John did not lack faith. (Mt 11:11) So his question, “Are we to expect a different one?” may have meant, ‘Are we to expect yet another one who will fulfill all the hopes of the Jews?’ Christ in reply pointed to the works he was doing (which things had been foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures). He concluded: “And happy is he who has not stumbled over me.” This answer, while implying that faith and discernment would be needed, would satisfy and comfort John, assuring him that Jesus was the One who would fulfill God’s promises. (Mt 11:3; Lu 7:18-23) Also, prior to his ascension, Jesus’ disciples held the view that he would at that time deliver Israel from Gentile domination and set up the Kingdom (restore the reign of the Davidic line) on earth.—Lu 24:21; Ac 1:6.
Why did the Jews in general not accept Jesus as the Messiah? The Encyclopaedia Judaica says: “The Jews of the Roman period believed [the Messiah] would be raised up by God to break the yoke of the heathen and to reign over a restored kingdom of Israel.” (Jerusalem, 1971, Vol. 11, col. 1407) They wanted liberation from the yoke of Rome. Jewish history testifies that on the basis of the Messianic prophecy recorded at Daniel 9:24-27 there were Jews who expected the Messiah during the first century C.E. (Luke 3:15) But that prophecy also connected his coming with ‘making an end of sin,’ and Isaiah chapter 53 indicated that Messiah himself would die in order to make this possible. However, the Jews in general felt no need for anyone to die for their sins. They believed that they had a righteous standing with God on the basis of their descent from Abraham. Says A Rabbinic Anthology, “So great is the [merit] of Abraham that he can atone for all the vanities committed and lies uttered by Israel in this world.” (London, 1938, C. Montefiore and H. Loewe, p. 676) By their rejection of Jesus as Messiah, the Jews fulfilled the prophecy that had foretold regarding him: “He was despised, and we esteemed him not.”—Isaiah 53:3, JP. Before his death, Moses foretold that the nation would turn aside from true worship and that, as a result, calamity would befall them. (Read Deuteronomy 31:27-29.) The book of Judges testifies that this occurred repeatedly. In the days of the prophet Jeremiah, national unfaithfulness led to the nation’s being taken into exile in Babylon. Why did God also allow the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and its temple in 70 C.E.? Of what unfaithfulness had the nation been guilty so that God did not protect them as he had done when they had put their trust in him? It was shortly before this that they had rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
Thank you for your lengthy response. Although I didn't ignore your answer I didn't read it, as I am not familiar with the scriptures and have no interest in doing so. I also have a short attention span when discussing or reading that which I have no interest in.
It was really a response to CLURT's comment, more so than an answer. Also more talking about peoples misconceptions of the scriptures, rather than scriptural quotes.
It’s useful to discover what makes people tick: particularly others who see things differently, even if they are gravely misled and wasting their time.
This post was edited by Don Barzini at May 19, 2018 6:04 AM MDT
It is useful---and rather interesting. Most of us, atheist or believer know what the other is talking about---at least generally---when either refer to the being the human race frequently refers to as "god"---or "God" as one prefers.
When I was in college, I spent a lot of my free time in the psychology section of the library reading case histories of people who were "different" and for whom the prognosis was "poor."
Reading on various Q & A sites frequently provides similar insights into those who so strenuously assert their convictions.
I purposely phrased my answer so as to be applicable from either position. There obviously can be great value in gaining another perspective, no matter how far afield, in our quest to understand each other and, to an extent, ourselves. This, to me, is one path to wisdom. It’s also good fodder for a laugh on occasion.
I read them so I'm not ignoring them but I hardly ever reply to them because I'm not at all religious nor am I an atheist so I'll just leave those discussions for the people who are passionate about them.
You can choose to talk to someone, or talk AT someone. You can preach to someone, or you can preach AT someone. You can find some common ground on which to interact, or you can talk down your nose and waste your time. Nothing is gained by either a superior attitude or by overwhelming the listener with too much information. You can create curiosity or enthusiasm if you're careful not to squelch it up front. Some observations from a Bible Thumper with a lot of pulpit experience.
The bible was written in Koine Greek, Estrangelo Aramaic, and parts in other tongues. English requires capital letters and punctuation, and those other languages didn't, so an English translation is impossible. For instance, "pneuma hagion" means "holy spirit", but if that means God it has to be capitalized, and if it refers to God's gift to believers then it is not capitalized. So every time that term appears, the interpreter must render his personal opinion of what it means. That makes it a version, no longer a translation. That's why there are so many English versions and so few translations, each including extensive explanations of such situations.
The devil is able to spread confusion by making fun of people who don't study the scriptures, and simultaneously making fun of people who do.
Q "Do you ignore bible-thumper questions and answers? They seem to cause a lot of arguments. Maybe that's why all of the mass murders of non-believers by christians and muslims." =================================================================
If a person, bible-thumper or not, goes public with their belief then I think it's not unreasonable for someone to want to know more from that person about that belief. That can only happen through questions and answers.
I'm not sure if "all of the mass murders of non-believers" can be traced to a lot of arguments caused by bible-thumper questions and answers. The cause is more likely to be greed, fear, bigotry, hatred and lack of understanding and tolerance.
What's your idea of a Bible-thumper? How do determine whether or not the person asking the question is indeed a Bible-thumper? And how do you know it's actually their questions that are starting the trouble? Perhaps the trouble is started by those who don't like or don't want to see the questions, to begin with. Just a thought. Somebody else might but I personally don't have a problem with someone asking Bible questions. :)